Reply to: Contract to Perm: IR35 Investigation Trigger?

[northernladuk]

https://www.contractoruk.com/forums/...ml#post2534228

https://www.contractoruk.com/forums/...ml#post2157533

Well in one of those cases he didn't get a single reply and even a Mod tells him to go away and stop waffling.

The other one is just waffle. It is possible to ask a succinct question with all the facts without pages of waffle. Neither of those examples do that so you've proven nothing.

You've more chance of finding a thread where you have actually offered some advice rather than trolling than you have of proving this point..

Now be a good little troll either offer some advice or piss off. Thanks

[pr1]

Which is utter nonsense. You can troll better than this.

Try harder next time.

https://www.contractoruk.com/forums/...ml#post2534228

https://www.contractoruk.com/forums/...ml#post2157533

[northernladuk]

To be fair, the threads where an OP puts all the information in the first post you say TL;DR

Which is utter nonsense. You can troll better than this.

Try harder next time.

[pr1]

For ****s sake. Do you not think it would have been mentioning that in the first place?

These bloody threads where key information leaks out over the period of 20+ posts and a couple of days do my head in.

To be fair, the threads where an OP puts all the information in the first post you say TL;DR

[Unai Emery]

But what you do is absolutely key.

Well, in my case what I DID prior to this role is key.

[northernladuk]

I assume you mean Do you not think it would have been worth mentioning that in the first place?

No, because if you read the OP my actual concern was over moving from contract to perm raising some kind of flag just by virtue of the fact that I've gone from contract to PAYE with the same client. Nothing to do with the nature of the work at all.

Don't be so touchy.

But what you do is absolutely key.

[Unai Emery]

For ****s sake. Do you not think it would have been mentioning that in the first place?

These bloody threads where key information leaks out over the period of 20+ posts and a couple of days do my head in.

I assume you mean Do you not think it would have been worth mentioning that in the first place?

No, because if you read the OP my actual concern was over moving from contract to perm raising some kind of flag just by virtue of the fact that I've gone from contract to PAYE with the same client. Nothing to do with the nature of the work at all.

Don't be so touchy.

[northernladuk]

The perm role was a completely different role altogether..

For ****s sake. Do you not think it would have been mentioning that in the first place?

These bloody threads where key information leaks out over the period of 20+ posts and a couple of days do my head in.

[Unai Emery]

But are you going to continue contracting for them? In that position you know is full time? If so it appears Disguised Employeedom is for you.

Yes, I shall work until the project is completed. The perm role was a completely different role altogether.

Since the PS rules were rolled out in 2016, I've been contracted to deliver precisely what's scoped in my schedule - nothing more, nothing less so I'm pretty confident about being outside of IR35 just from the MoO perspective. Someone comes along and says they need a bit of help on project x I just tell them in the nicest possible way that I'm more than happy to help but I need my contract updated accordingly.

At least that's what I would say because it has never actually happened.

[Hobosapien]

Told you it was a MoOt point

As it happens, I've passed them up on their kind offer. Given it a bit of thought & I don't think permiedom is for me,

See what happens in the upcoming budget statement, and if IR35 as currently applied to public sector does get rolled out to private sector next April, you can safely go permie after a contract renewal beyond April where client deems you still outside IR35 as the risk is then on them if they get it wrong in HMRC's eyes.

[northernladuk]

Told you it was a MoOt point

As it happens, I've passed them up on their kind offer. Given it a bit of thought & I don't think permiedom is for me,

But are you going to continue contracting for them? In that position you know is full time? If so it appears Disguised Employeedom is for you.

[Hobosapien]

Aye, all hangs on how the OP was operating outside IR35, whether done properly with a contract review including working practices or by wishful thinking.

Yep, the working practices thing is difficult to review pre-contract start but the way I've handled it is to start the contract with IR35 in mind and assess everything expected or asked of me by the client how it would fit into a contract review. Can then try to position oneself where the working practices will pass the review once established. Not ideal as there's a risk the client won't allow an outside IR35 approach.

At least if the client is making the outside determination then there's less to worry about if it remains that the client is on the hook if they get the determination wrong in HMRC's eyes.

[Unai Emery]

Not many people get their working practices reviewed. Very difficult to do until you get to site.

That's not what MoO is. What you are referring to is the T&M nature of the contract. MoO is around other work after the current agreed one is complete.

Told you it was a MoOt point

As it happens, I've passed them up on their kind offer. Given it a bit of thought & I don't think permiedom is for me,

[northernladuk]

See how your working practices are likely to change once a permie, presuming your outside IR35 was determined by reviewing them in the first place.

Not many people get their working practices reviewed. Very difficult to do until you get to site.

Then see how the three pillars of IR35 (MOO, substitution, SDC), where all three need to stand to be caught within IR35, are likely to change. i.e. MOO is certain as an employee as you'll get paid whether you're actually working or not or ill, which is unlikely to be the case while a contractor.

That's not what MoO is. What you are referring to is the T&M nature of the contract. MoO is around other work after the current agreed one is complete.

So should be relatively simple to prove your working practices have changed once a permie if HMRC somehow investigate.

I doubt that, particularly if they don't which I'd bet they won't.

IR35 was Brough in around the Friday to Monday contractor. All that has changed is the remuneration method. The same could easily be argued the other way.

[dx4100]

I went from contract to perm and then perm back to contracting all at the same company.

The key is all down to the role you are doing. My situation was genuinely from freelance .Net dev working on my own greenfield projects to fully fledged lead dev with everything that goes with that and then back again. All fully reviewed and signed off by my legal advisers (obviously all subject to interpretations but its the best I can do) and all signed off because the roles where totally different both on paper and in reality.

If they are at all similar then you will be in a bad position.