Reply to: Call to NATO contractors abroad Belguim

[wakeupjester]

For some reason i cannot reply to your PM, i guess i need a certain amount of posts first?

oh, crap ... I best start posting then. I've contracted for many years but never abroad... and used this site for years too but never posted. Cheers for the heads-up on the tax consultants.

[Tatler]

Guys, i have just been given the nod (but no contract) that i could have picked up a contract in shape. Could someone point me in the direction of a good accountant / tax advisor ? Last year I was simply going to use my limited company ...however things have changed.

For some reason i cannot reply to your PM, i guess i need a certain amount of posts first?

[Tatler]

Please don't mention him on any forum I read....last conversation I had with him ended with him offering to kick me in the b@ll$ while shouting how much of a 'c' word I was. Trust me, I was in the right and he wasn't!

Vector are pretty good though you need to give their contracts a good look over.

Also there's at least two agencies now operating via UK subsidiaries so even though you still go through the EU based people when interviewing and filling in forms etc. the invoicing is now done via a UK company in GBP rather than some odd Macedonian or Bulgarian entity in Euro. Not sure how this is going to work in practise as you are still a UK Ltd based in De haag / Shape etc. I hope it's ok as I'm currently going for a role under this set-up!

LOL ya, he went off the scale at me in 2008 when i accepted a contract in Afghanistan, then after he booked flights etc, i renaged as the current mob wanted me to stay. He is a multi millionaire on the back of mostly nato contracts, there are some slimy gits work for him too.

[Tatler]

Guys, i have just been given the nod (but no contract) that i could have picked up a contract in shape. Could someone point me in the direction of a good accountant / tax advisor ? Last year I was simply going to use my limited company ...however things have changed.

I use https://www.google.com/search?q=cobe...hrome&ie=UTF-8

Not sure if things have changed though, you will still need a Ltd company, no need to register for VAT anymore though.

[wakeupjester]

Guys, i have just been given the nod (but no contract) that i could have picked up a contract in shape. Could someone point me in the direction of a good accountant / tax advisor ? Last year I was simply going to use my limited company ...however things have changed.

[David71]

mostly owned by one guy <modsnip>

Please don't mention him on any forum I read....last conversation I had with him ended with him offering to kick me in the b@ll$ while shouting how much of a 'c' word I was. Trust me, I was in the right and he wasn't!

Vector are pretty good though you need to give their contracts a good look over.

Also there's at least two agencies now operating via UK subsidiaries so even though you still go through the EU based people when interviewing and filling in forms etc. the invoicing is now done via a UK company in GBP rather than some odd Macedonian or Bulgarian entity in Euro. Not sure how this is going to work in practise as you are still a UK Ltd based in De haag / Shape etc. I hope it's ok as I'm currently going for a role under this set-up!

[Tatler]

Scrap the annex 15 advice as above, any NEW BRIT contractors coming to SHAPE, or indeed anywhere in BE, need to now register their LTD company in Belgium for tax purposes, and apply for a work permit for the employee sent here. Existing contractors were issued an Annex15 last year, which will last 5 years, as a transition, then they will also need to register same. Cross border/frontier workers, no longer exist, at least new ones for now.

[Tatler]

Thanks Tatler - Good shout on the Annex 15 - just did some reading up on it.

Is there any supporting documentation specifically relating to frontier workers + taxation that you're aware of on the Belgian goverment sites? Or is it more of a case that this approach is taken because the commune assume that NATO people don't pay tax and therefore don't really question it?

What's got me worried is that (despite being dual national Belgian/British and they already have all my details in their register) the information on the other Belgian posts here contradicts the Taxation bit quoting "You pay Belgian tax on your Belgian sourced income" as well as the 183 rule referenced specifically stipulates that Belgium refuses to recognise single person PSCs as a LTD company in it's own right.

There's also no information that I've been able to find on HMRC about this.

"The 183-day rule is only applicable to dependent workers – those able to prove that they are in a full employment contract with the company in question. It does not apply to self-employed or independent workers. Those operating through a personal service company (PSC) abroad are also unable to use this rule and will instead be required to become a tax resident in the host country once the contract begins. This applies for the company, its director and any employees. Contractors themselves also risk paying the host country income tax and social security on their entire global earnings as well as corporate tax on all profits by operating through a PSC outside their home country. And, of course, should these workers choose to use a PSC which is not registered in the host destination, they risk fines, penalties, back-dated liabilities and potential jail time."


Not to mention the horror stories of the taxman coming personally after you years later because they don't recognise the LTD company and chasing you 10%/month fines

The setup I'm being approached with so far:

me (Single person PSC) -> Romanian Agency -> *maybe someone else who knows* -> NATO

Cheers

Alex

Treat it as a LTD UK company sending you on assignment, forget the BE authorities and any BE taxation, it is not because NATO, it is because you are on a temp assignment, as a cross border worker, from a UK ltd company. We all work to an agency who provides payroll and HR function (Enterpryze/Vector/Brevco, mostly owned by one guy <modsnip>), who then in turn contract to another company, who contract to NATO/NCIA. PM me if you want more info, i don't get on here much.

[Alex87]

Go to commune with contract, and get LIMOSA/ANNEX 15 letter, costs nothing, this allows you to work in BE as a frontier worker, takes 20 mins, you need a passport photo. Yes say SHAPE INN as address, no one will check, even if you are renting a private property.
Yes the taxation is done in UK, via LTD company, claiming expenses (first 2 years), so £715 salary, rest is expenses. You will not pay any BE tax, no contractors do, and the Mons commune is fully used to SHAPE contractors.

Has it changed after Brexit? Not sure, it's very confusing. I think those of us who were here last year, are ok, we got annex15 letters at end of 2019 that ended 31/12/2020, but were issued unlimited ones again last year, with no end date, it may be different for new UK contractors coming here.

Thanks Tatler - Good shout on the Annex 15 - just did some reading up on it.

Is there any supporting documentation specifically relating to frontier workers + taxation that you're aware of on the Belgian goverment sites? Or is it more of a case that this approach is taken because the commune assume that NATO people don't pay tax and therefore don't really question it?

What's got me worried is that (despite being dual national Belgian/British and they already have all my details in their register) the information on the other Belgian posts here contradicts the Taxation bit quoting "You pay Belgian tax on your Belgian sourced income" as well as the 183 rule referenced specifically stipulates that Belgium refuses to recognise single person PSCs as a LTD company in it's own right.

There's also no information that I've been able to find on HMRC about this.

"The 183-day rule is only applicable to dependent workers – those able to prove that they are in a full employment contract with the company in question. It does not apply to self-employed or independent workers. Those operating through a personal service company (PSC) abroad are also unable to use this rule and will instead be required to become a tax resident in the host country once the contract begins. This applies for the company, its director and any employees. Contractors themselves also risk paying the host country income tax and social security on their entire global earnings as well as corporate tax on all profits by operating through a PSC outside their home country. And, of course, should these workers choose to use a PSC which is not registered in the host destination, they risk fines, penalties, back-dated liabilities and potential jail time."


Not to mention the horror stories of the taxman coming personally after you years later because they don't recognise the LTD company and chasing you 10%/month fines

The setup I'm being approached with so far:

me (Single person PSC) -> Romanian Agency -> *maybe someone else who knows* -> NATO

Cheers

Alex

[Tatler]

If you are working through a UK defence contractor, then it is possible you are not subject to Belgian tax provided you are commuting and don't qualify as permanently resident.

Most contracts go through companies on the framework, that are in Bulgaria, then onto a prime contracting company. So you contract to one company, who provides Payroll, and HR function, then onto another who has the contract with NATO. As a frontier worker, you are only liable for tax in the UK, even after 2 years, you will never be liable to BE for tax. The fixed term positions pay no tax at all, and are registered in BE, with protocol ID, and get VAT free goods in camp carrefour, tax free fags/booze and fuel, though the pay is far less than interim contractors.

[Tatler]

So what's the sequence? Are you saying:

1) Register for LIMOSA (Shape inn details)pre-departure
2) Register at Commune with Shape Inn

Regarding the taxation - is this done as a UK LTD Company where you're expensing accomodation/travel/sustinance and paying a small salary which is taxed via Belgium or is it all done through the UK with nothing declared in Belgium?

If you're intending to do a simple 6 month contract with SHAPE - what would the correct/most effective procedure be (with the information suggested in contracting in Belgium) vs what you could potentially get away with (at risk)?


Alex

Go to commune with contract, and get LIMOSA/ANNEX 15 letter, costs nothing, this allows you to work in BE as a frontier worker, takes 20 mins, you need a passport photo. Yes say SHAPE INN as address, no one will check, even if you are renting a private property.
Yes the taxation is done in UK, via LTD company, claiming expenses (first 2 years), so £715 salary, rest is expenses. You will not pay any BE tax, no contractors do, and the Mons commune is fully used to SHAPE contractors.

Has it changed after Brexit? Not sure, it's very confusing. I think those of us who were here last year, are ok, we got annex15 letters at end of 2019 that ended 31/12/2020, but were issued unlimited ones again last year, with no end date, it may be different for new UK contractors coming here.

[CoolCat]

I have read a number of posts about contracting abroad and especially Belguim. I realise this question has been answered numerous times but I just wanted to know if their are any different rules when contracting for NATO?

I'm pretty sure I know the answer but I am being told different from a very well known UK agency that supplies NATO and other Gov agencies.

They are telling me they have 100's of contractors that work for NATO that are all running through their UK Ltd Company without any issues. I can only assume this is because they are either under the radar or have not been caught up with yet?

I would be interested to hear from anyone who has contracted for NATO.

I also have heard through a friend that they know of two contractors that had to register their company (non UK but still within EU?) with the local commune so they can contract for 6mnths but pay tax back home. They were told to do this by NATO before they receive ID badges. I do wonder if that is not totally correct and it was in fact they had to register themselves not their company.

Any thoughts on this would greatly appreciated.

Many Thanks

checkerman

If you are contracting direct to NATO then be aware that by international conventions that NATO is exempt from paying VAT. They just dont pay it. So your invoices need to be free of any VAT. But you will still need to reclaim VAT for anything you spend, so you will become a big VAT reclaimer, which will probably attract the tax man to come and do a check. Make sure you accountant is aware this complication will crop up.

[BlasterBates]

If you are working through a UK defence contractor, then it is possible you are not subject to Belgian tax provided you are commuting and don't qualify as permanently resident.

[Alex87]

You register with the commune as a cross border worker, put down the SHAPE inn as your residence, no-one will check. Once you have the letter from commune, and security have the RFV (request for visit, with security clearance on) from the contracting agency, you will get an AMIS, via a few stamps from HR/security, it can easily be all done in one day, if you turn up at the commune early.
Regarding the tax, you are an employee sent on an assignment, first 2 years is same as anywhere else, you will only pay corporation tax, if you have a half decent accountant. After 2 years is a different matter, but there are a lot of people here flying under the radar.

So what's the sequence? Are you saying:

1) Register for LIMOSA (Shape inn details)pre-departure
2) Register at Commune with Shape Inn

Regarding the taxation - is this done as a UK LTD Company where you're expensing accomodation/travel/sustinance and paying a small salary which is taxed via Belgium or is it all done through the UK with nothing declared in Belgium?

If you're intending to do a simple 6 month contract with SHAPE - what would the correct/most effective procedure be (with the information suggested in contracting in Belgium) vs what you could potentially get away with (at risk)?


Alex

[Tatler]

You register with the commune as a cross border worker, put down the SHAPE inn as your residence, no-one will check. Once you have the letter from commune, and security have the RFV (request for visit, with security clearance on) from the contracting agency, you will get an AMIS, via a few stamps from HR/security, it can easily be all done in one day, if you turn up at the commune early.
Regarding the tax, you are an employee sent on an assignment, first 2 years is same as anywhere else, you will only pay corporation tax, if you have a half decent accountant. After 2 years is a different matter, but there are a lot of people here flying under the radar.