Reply to: That old chestnut - contractors and oncall

[psychocandy]

One piece of advice for anyone considering doing what I've done. Make sure you sort out what happens if you get called and there are extra hours involved.

Client may assume the deal for on call includes time worked too. Contract may indicate PWD which means you don't get paid extra strictly speaking but my argument is theres nothing in contract for on call either.

[psychocandy]

So you're equating the way that you contract as being a permanent employee. Do you do the same for outside IR35 roles or is it just for this one?

Nope generally not for outside IR35 roles...

Tony - I see what you're getting at and, of course, you're right. First whiff of client wanting something like this you point him to agent and say "well lets start to talk" - in an ideal world. But, we don;t live in an ideal world and IMHO contractors who act like this don't last too long.

Plumber analogy - Plumber is fitting new bath for you. You ask him if hes got 5 minutes to sort out a leaky tap. Plumber A does it and you might offer him £10 for a drink. Plumber B refuses and says you have to phone his head office and get a proper quote. Which plumber do you use next time?

[TonyF]

I see where you're going with this but dept want contractor to be on-call. They've worked out a deal which involves TOIL.
Finance dept are hardly going to moan about it. If they do, thats for dept to sort out with their own finance dept - nothing to do with me.

Its the same if manager does same with permie surely? Says because you worked extra feel free to go home at lunchtime today - they're not going to phone the finance department and ask they're permission are they? Or say do you mind paying x the full salary this month even though I'm letting him go early today?

So you're equating the way that you contract as being a permanent employee. Do you do the same for outside IR35 roles or is it just for this one?

[psychocandy]

If they did know, would the timesheet be right or wrong?

I see where you're going with this but dept want contractor to be on-call. They've worked out a deal which involves TOIL.
Finance dept are hardly going to moan about it. If they do, thats for dept to sort out with their own finance dept - nothing to do with me.

Its the same if manager does same with permie surely? Says because you worked extra feel free to go home at lunchtime today - they're not going to phone the finance department and ask they're permission are they? Or say do you mind paying x the full salary this month even though I'm letting him go early today?

[TonyF]

its hardly likely that the finance dept know when Im there and when Im not, is it?

If they did know, would the timesheet be right or wrong?

[psychocandy]

if the finance department realise that an invoice is submitted for work not done they might well use the word 'fraud'.
The manager who suggested the use of toil might prefer the word 'deferred'.
'False' is a fair word in the context as well.

'Correct', 'valid', and 'genuine' are words that wouldn't apply.

I dont think so. For a start its hardly likely that the finance dept know when Im there and when Im not, is it?

And anyway, if they dont like it then my client manager has got the issue not me.

[psychocandy]

I disagree. Trust has nothing to do with it. They’re asking you to submit fraudulent invoices (ie invoices for work you haven’t done).

Well timesheets not invoices. Its PS inside IR35 anyway.

So if I submit a timesheet for 5 days instead of 4 when I wasn't there the monday whos going to care? Agency wont know or care thats for sure.

[Lance]

False rather than fraudulent, I think.

if the finance department realise that an invoice is submitted for work not done they might well use the word 'fraud'.
The manager who suggested the use of toil might prefer the word 'deferred'.
'False' is a fair word in the context as well.

'Correct', 'valid', and 'genuine' are words that wouldn't apply.

[Old Greg]

I disagree. Trust has nothing to do with it. They’re asking you to submit fraudulent invoices (ie invoices for work you haven’t done).

False rather than fraudulent, I think.

[Lance]

Agreed its not ideal - and you've got to trust the client.

I disagree. Trust has nothing to do with it. They’re asking you to submit fraudulent invoices (ie invoices for work you haven’t done).

[billybiro]

Important word here is "exploitative" client. I agree it their twats then go for it.

I had one client who moaned when I left site at lunchtime to go to the gym (yes he really thought he could tell me to stay on site when he wanted). Then moaned constantly about everything. Asked me to do on call temporarily for a few weeks for free until a new permie got up to speed. Never in a million years.

Then again, current client asked me to work bank holiday. My expectation (and contractual deal) was one day. Client offered me one day PLUS a day TOIL - they didnt have to do this of course.

Exactly. The same as my other post.

In a nutshell: If I scratch your back, I'll expect you to scratch mine. However, if I scratch your back and you stick a knife in mine, I won't be scratching your back ever again.

[psychocandy]

I don't disagree with this, however consider:

If giving an exploitative client a few extra hours of your time will "build a business relationship", are you sure that you actually want that business relationship and additional future work from such a client?

Maybe, if you're desperate for work and don't mind (or can at least tolerate) being exploited and having unreasonable expectation imposed upon you. However, if you're not so desperate for work and can afford to wait until a better opportunity comes along then I, personally, wouldn't want that relationship and work from an abusive client.

I suppose each individual has to make their own decisions on this.

Important word here is "exploitative" client. I agree it their twats then go for it.

I had one client who moaned when I left site at lunchtime to go to the gym (yes he really thought he could tell me to stay on site when he wanted). Then moaned constantly about everything. Asked me to do on call temporarily for a few weeks for free until a new permie got up to speed. Never in a million years.

Then again, current client asked me to work bank holiday. My expectation (and contractual deal) was one day. Client offered me one day PLUS a day TOIL - they didnt have to do this of course.

[billybiro]

As a businessman, you're building relationships that will lead to further business. Sometimes, you go the extra mile to do that. There's more than one way to "think like a business." I have multiple people working for me and still have more than I can do sometimes, and my time has gotten absurdly expensive. I wouldn't pay myself what these people are willing to pay, but I've built relationships where they highly value what I bring to the table, so they pay.

I can afford to give a half hour here or there if it builds those kinds of relationships. Something you might want to consider in some cases.

I don't disagree with this, however consider:

If giving an exploitative client a few extra hours of your time will "build a business relationship", are you sure that you actually want that business relationship and additional future work from such a client?

Maybe, if you're desperate for work and don't mind (or can at least tolerate) being exploited and having unreasonable expectation imposed upon you. However, if you're not so desperate for work and can afford to wait until a better opportunity comes along then I, personally, wouldn't want that relationship and work from an abusive client.

I suppose each individual has to make their own decisions on this.

[billybiro]

Looking at many of Billy's posts, he seems to be unlucky and have the worst clients (or always assumes that they are bad, even if they are not)

Not really. I've had some awful clients, true. As I'm sure we all have. It's largely human nature after all to try to exploit that which is free.

That said, though, I've also had (and continue to have) some brilliant clients. The ones I've done work for and happily go back to again and again (and they're happy to have me back).

I think this is the crux of the whole thing. Yes, there will be clients who will seek to exploit you - you treat them how they treat you. But then there's also clients who will respect you and your time, and treat you like a human being. Again, you treat them how they treat you.

Personally, for my own set of brilliant clients, I'm more than happy to work extra hours and generally go "above and beyond the call of duty" for them when it's required. I do this because I know they don't expect it, they're exceptionally grateful, and they will reciprocate when the shoe is on the other foot.

In short, when there's mutual respect and a healthy working relationship, do extra for your client. When that's missing, however, then don't.

[sal]

They'd just say "umm no thanks then" and walk into the distance mumbling about "bloody contractors". Im sure they'd not be mega funny and drop me or anything like that but it'd be a slight notch in our relationship.

Or I can think, "hmm its piss easy, creates a good impressions, and its nice to have a few extra days at least"

Not ideal as I've said a million times and depends on the client. I had a mate who racked up 45 days TOIL at one client, then the contract ended suddenly. Chances or him getting paid for this TOIL were no hope and bob hope. NEVER do this.

I always enquire about expectations for on-call/out of hours work during the interview. If there is an expectation for a great deal of it I ask about how it's compensated. If what is on the table doesn't suits me - I just don't take the role. If the expectations/requirements change mid contract, that's a reason for renegotiation if CleintCo is unhappy with my terms there is nothing I can do about it. Not going to bend over and take it like a permie.

Your mate was naive to say the least to rack up 45 days "TOIL" as a contractor

Never in a million years would I agree to on-call without remote access.