Reply to: Is it acceptable to discuss rates with other contractors working at the same client?

[churchillsnip]

If I were finishing the contract at the same time, might discuss it during the last day beers. Only to get a sense of market value, and whether I'm pitching myself at the right rate.

[sal]

I don't care to know the rate of other contractors at my current client, nor do i care to share mine with them.

I'm OK to share my rate with friends, who are also contractors when we compare notes about the state of the market.

The only situation where I would discuss my rate at the office is if I suspect the agency is shafting me hard (+20% margin) and want some bargaining power on renewal. In that case I will try to tactfully approach the subject with the person signing my timesheets.

[Hobosapien]

... I would lie to him just to wind him up, but he clearly has a big mouth so I could see that causing me problems. ...

Yep, that's why many just avoid the discussion at all.

There's also the permies to worry about in that some may know what the client is paying the agency and think that is being forwarded onto the contractor. I've seen permies 'joking' about how the contractors must be rich with what they're getting paid. I 'joke' that it's the agents getting rich as they take '50%' for doing nothing. Smoke and mirrors all the way.

[Jaws]

I never reveal my rate and to be honest how can you be sure what the other contractors are telling you is genuine? There is a young contractor where I am, pretty much every time we've been out to the pub he tries to get this info out of me - I would lie to him just to wind him up, but he clearly has a big mouth so I could see that causing me problems. I believe the contract states something about never discussing rates as well.

[washed up contractor]

I worked regularly with the same handful of contractors on a client site. We did discuss rates in general terms when no permies were around. With one or two lads I trusted, we did discuss actual rates we were on. I found they were on a rate I wouldnt have accepted for the job but then again, they were local while I had a 160 mile a day commute.

Sure in the contract T&Cs it is generally forbidden to discuss rates but so what. If you're daft enough to tell the whole office or people you dont know \ trust, then watch out.

[Spikeh]

Under no circumstances should you discuss your rate with other contractors or permies. The only time I'd ever consider discussing rate is with the client, when we're considering going direct - but this goes hand in hand with all the other awkward terms you need to agree to.

[Hobosapien]

...negotiating power..

That alone is why ethically agencies should be held to account and forced to make their margins transparent to both client and contractor. It's no good for business if the parasite is sucking everyone dry.

There is no benefit to the client for the contractor failing to negotiate the maximum possible rate the client was willing to pay after a reasonable cut by the agency. The agency is not going to pass the rate reduction back to the client. Only the agency benefits in that position, so it's in their interest to low ball the applicants to see if they can find 'a mug' so the agency gets a bigger slice of the pie.

Only way for the contractor to fight back is to play hard ball at risk of losing the contract/renewal or determine the best rate possible and use that knowledge at renewal time, to squeeze the agency back to what margin they should have been on at the start.

Just don't be a bell-end that ends up punching out people and burning bridges by throwing your toys out of the pram. Then again the fewer bell-ends that get another contract or renewal the better for us contractors.

[craig1]

What a tool. Have you spoke to him since?

Barely, we're more Facebook friends than proper friends now. He seems to still hold a grudge about it, either that or he's so embarrassed by his Elton John style diva moment that he's hoping I never see him again. I do know that he struggled to get a contract for a while afterwards though, the old rule of it being who you know not what seems to apply given who he had the rant at.

Most people just don't get that there's usually a good reason why people get different rates. I did a contract in 2011 at a company that was a three hour commute each way from home and not a nice reputation company either, they ramped up the rates until I agreed to take it for six months to the point that I was on £300 per day more than my peers plus getting weekly bill/weekly pay compared to the usual monthly bill/three month pay that contractors got. I know this because I controlled the budget for the entire de-merger, it was made bluntly clear to me that if I disclosed my rate and terms then I'd be out the same day. I wasn't anything special, I just had a skillset that was hard to find at the time and they had a bad reputation as a company, they had to pay way over the odds to get me while most contractors there had generic skillsets and were jobber type contractors. If I'd disclosed my rate to anyone at the company then they'd have had very big morale problems during a critical de-merger project.

Then you get the contractors who really are disguised employees, they're the ones who really get held up on a comparable "salary" rate I find. Every contractor has different circumstances, skills and negotiating power, that's why they have different rates, it's almost never a personal slight on the lower-paid contractor, they just don't have that contract's requirements to get a better rate.

[eldy]

Never discuss rates. Full stop.

This thread reminds me of a colleague at her leaving drinks who said she to me she was on xxx a day and negotiated a 20% day rate increase mid contract and that I should also ask for day rate increase as I must still be on xxx a day as well! Didnt want to tell her i was actually on 160% her xxx a day I mean - what if they decided to call her to hire her back at a later date? and I didnt want to ruin her leaving drinks...

[jmo21]

About three months later, my mate found out my rate because he was asked to do a business case on contractor rates for a new scheme and had access to all in the company for example purposes. He threw a right wobbler when he found out my rate, accused me of being a "traitor", sent a "f*** you" email to the COO who oversaw our work and stormed out the same day.

What a tool. Have you spoke to him since?

[heyya99]

Exactly this. As I said, I am being paid a rate I'm happy with. My bills and holidays are paid. Life is too short to spend it comparing myself against other people.

That's fair enough I suppose. I am on the best rate I've been on and know it's certainly market value and if I found out a colleague was on 200 more, I might wonder how they were clever enough to gain such a rate but I'd be content with mine. That might change come renewal time though

[ladymuck]

The person next to you in on £200 pd more than you and you don't care?

Why should you, - you're not a permie with a structured salary scale.
you negotiate a rate for the job, then accept it and carry on.
if someone's got a better deal, that's hats off to them, and maybe you'll play harder next gig.
FFS! are there any real contractors on this forum???

Exactly this. As I said, I am being paid a rate I'm happy with. My bills and holidays are paid. Life is too short to spend it comparing myself against other people.

[craig1]

A friend of mine, used to be a reasonably good friend, now more of an acquaintance, got me a gig working with him running a programme of work. He had the same role but on a different programme. He was boasting about the rates, how he was at the top end of their contractor payment tree and they couldn't go higher for ANYONE. I came in, interviewed and was offered the same as him plus £20p/d more on their specialist skills contractor scheme. Only £20p/d, not much but £4000 over a year isn't to be sniffed at for no extra work.

I didn't mention it using the old rule of it's not anyone else's business what rate I get.

About three months later, my mate found out my rate because he was asked to do a business case on contractor rates for a new scheme and had access to all in the company for example purposes. He threw a right wobbler when he found out my rate, accused me of being a "traitor", sent a "f*** you" email to the COO who oversaw our work and stormed out the same day.

There's usually no good that'll come from disclosing your rate or salary to anyone else in a company. It just brings out the negative in people, either "heh, I earn more than" smugness or "how dare they pay HIM more than ME!"

[uk contractor]

Its all part of the game really. I often if asked tell others how much but I mislead them & lowball my number by about 25-30% to see their reaction & sometimes they go quiet which you know means they are on way more! Slightly underhand I know but anyone who asks your rate is not going to be a work friend at all are they!

[Hobosapien]

It's handy to know come renewal time but not worth rocking the boat over. Sometimes it becomes apparent over a few beers if you have a good casual relationship with fellow contractors or the client management.

Other times I've found out by accident (overheard conversations or paperwork left lying about), sixth sense (no actual figures discussed but could work out the ballpark), or when the client actively wanted it all in the open so they could be sure the agency wasn't taking the piss too much and were therefore getting value for their money in terms of quality of contractor they would expect to attract for their outlay.

Sometime it's become apparent towards the end of a project and they let the more expensive contractors (with similar skills set and role) go first as things wind down. Hence I don't worry about squeezing every last £1 on the rate when sometime a slightly longer stint is offered for being just as good (or better ) but slightly cheaper. Though then you're into 'better to be cheaper and get lots of renewals' or 'expensive but need more contracts', which can be swayed by likely bench time between contracts and size of warchest to wait it out to determine which approach may be financially the better one. Then again the best contractors are both expensive and get lots of renewals.