Reply to: Day Trading Shares as a UK Individual inside a Stocks and Shares ISA.

[bulltraderpt]

I think the reason FX is popular with the amateurs is that you need very little capital to get started, most of the heavily advertised platforms will allow you to start losing money with as little as £100 in margin. "Trading forums" exhibit massive survivor bias; you never hear from the ones who deposit £100, get wiped out, and never go near it again. IME, FX is a bit of a shark tank even at the institutional level, it's much less regulated than e.g. equities, there's no reference source for prices, etc. etc.

Yes when I quizzed the guy I know about it and when I watched numerous youtube vids plus watching EZtrader on TV with his platform there did seem to be large discrepancies regarding prices and fills, hence I think you've nailed it regarding the regulation issues.

Numerous people got wiped out IIFC when the Swizz franc I think it was appreciated 30% in 10 seconds.

From what I can gather, shares appears to be the easiest to master if you stay with liquid stocks etc, those which are the hardest are currencies bonds and commodities although you can get good exposure with shares which are commodity plays.

[Ebenezer]

There certainly appears to be more FX traders out there than pure stock traders. A guy I know knows loads via various groups (but only knows one pure stock intraday trader) and is really into attempting to make his FX trading hobby in to a career.

The bottom line is if you can read a chart (with the usual caveats), you should be able to trade anything.

I considered FX trading but felt there were too many question marks regarding platforms, fills, over night risk, macro news stories etc etc. Plus once you are comfortable with a style of trading or an instrument why go looking for something else.

I think the reason FX is popular with the amateurs is that you need very little capital to get started, most of the heavily advertised platforms will allow you to start losing money with as little as £100 in margin. "Trading forums" exhibit massive survivor bias; you never hear from the ones who deposit £100, get wiped out, and never go near it again. IME, FX is a bit of a shark tank even at the institutional level, it's much less regulated than e.g. equities, there's no reference source for prices, etc. etc.

[bulltraderpt]

So do you simply trade stocks on a short term basis, over several weeks ?

Do you short or just go long ?

and what return do you get on your capital ?

Hi BB, I answered it in post no.9 on of thread so I don't wish to repeat what I have already stated, however to answer your other questions, I only trade from the long side, I do have a spread bet account but use it currently only for alerts, I only intra-day trade and will not enter into swing style positions, psychologically it doesn't fit me.

[BlasterBates]

There certainly appears to be more FX traders out there than pure stock traders. A guy I know knows loads via various groups (but only knows one pure stock intraday trader) and is really into attempting to make his FX trading hobby in to a career.

The bottom line is if you can read a chart (with the usual caveats), you should be able to trade anything.

I considered FX trading but felt there were too many question marks regarding platforms, fills, over night risk, macro news stories etc etc. Plus once you are comfortable with a style of trading or an instrument why go looking for something else.

So do you simply trade stocks on a short term basis, over several weeks ?

Do you short or just go long ?

and what return do you get on your capital ?

[bulltraderpt]

I must admit I'm quite intrigued by trading though I think time horizons have to be weeks rather than intraday. I have tried it but usually get caught out. I did alright for a while with a CfD FX portfolio I did my research and was on the right side of most of my trades but I went for diversification and ended up being overexposed on the S&P 500 just before a major correction. Although the position looked to be balanced it clearly wasn't and I bailed out after I hit my self-imposed limit.

Apart from my S&P position which was clearly a mistake I think the FX trading might have worked, though the interest you pay holding positions overnight is a drag on the return.

There certainly appears to be more FX traders out there than pure stock traders. A guy I know knows loads via various groups (but only knows one pure stock intraday trader) and is really into attempting to make his FX trading hobby in to a career.

The bottom line is if you can read a chart (with the usual caveats), you should be able to trade anything.

I considered FX trading but felt there were too many question marks regarding platforms, fills, over night risk, macro news stories etc etc. Plus once you are comfortable with a style of trading or an instrument why go looking for something else.

[BlasterBates]

I must admit I'm quite intrigued by trading though I think time horizons have to be weeks rather than intraday. I have tried it but usually get caught out. I did alright for a while with a CfD FX portfolio I did my research and was on the right side of most of my trades but I went for diversification and ended up being overexposed on the S&P 500 just before a major correction. Although the position looked to be balanced it clearly wasn't and I bailed out after I hit my self-imposed limit.

Apart from my S&P position which was clearly a mistake I think the FX trading might have worked, though the interest you pay holding positions overnight is a drag on the return.

[jamesbrown]

I am not here to argue with you

Likewise. Just offering an alternative POV, since you replied. Best of luck.

[bulltraderpt]

Perhaps. OTOH the overall stats don't lie. Some individual day traders will outperform the average of day traders (over a finite period of time), and they may even outperform a tracker after fees (over their finite lifetime of trading). Most won't. Of those that do, was this related to how many books they read, how much time they spent exploring strategies? I'm highly skeptical. Afterall, most day traders will have invested a lot of time and effort. Some will have been lucky with a few individual trades that could've gone horribly wrong. In general, day traders will lose from the time-accumulation of fees (not the individual fees) and also from being out of the market for periods of time. The difficulty with day trading is that it relies too much on timing, and timing the market is impossible to do, consistently. Anyway, as I say, the stats are available for everyone to see. But if you go in with your eyes open...

I am not here to argue with you, some are wired to think in a specific way usually from environmental factors.

To genuinely understand your own psychology I suggest, is nigh on impossible for most people. Personally you've got to do a lot of soul searching and look at all your experiences and trade in a way which suits you.

One thing is for sure though, if you can't or don't think it can be done it will turn out to be a self fulfulling prophecy if you attempt to try.

[jamesbrown]

All of what you say is true, you've got to find set ups and stick with them. I've a library of books on trading and trading psychology and your average individual doesn't perform well over time for a litany of reasons.

However as with everything in life the more you put into something, the more you research it and get into it, the better you should understand it.

The fees argument is always a bit of a mystery to me really though, given you can be in and out of a stock for a tenner or less (not including stamp or the ptm levy (if your size attracts it)).

Perhaps. OTOH the overall stats don't lie. Some individual day traders will outperform the average of day traders (over a finite period of time), and they may even outperform a tracker after fees (over their finite lifetime of trading). Most won't. Of those that do, was this related to how many books they read, how much time they spent exploring strategies? I'm highly skeptical. Afterall, most day traders will have invested a lot of time and effort. Some will have been lucky with a few individual trades that could've gone horribly wrong. In general, day traders will lose from the time-accumulation of fees (not the individual fees) and also from being out of the market for periods of time. The difficulty with day trading is that it relies too much on timing, and timing the market is impossible to do, consistently. Anyway, as I say, the stats are available for everyone to see. But if you go in with your eyes open...

[bulltraderpt]

It's well-established that the average of individual day traders yields less than the market average. Individual day traders may perform differently. Equivalently, the average day trader has no greater insight than the average trader, and hence they will always lose through fees alone. There's nothing particularly astonishing about this. Likewise, actively managed funds performs worse than trackers, on average, after fees. It's the expectation of outperforming the market that presumably drives both. That or a bit of fun.

All of what you say is true, you've got to find set ups and stick with them. I've a library of books on trading and trading psychology and your average individual doesn't perform well over time for a litany of reasons.

However as with everything in life the more you put into something, the more you research it and get into it, the better you should understand it.

The fees argument is always a bit of a mystery to me really though, given you can be in and out of a stock for a tenner or less (not including stamp or the ptm levy (if your size attracts it)).

[jamesbrown]

It's well established that individual day traders perform far worse than the market average, once trading costs are taken into account.

It's well-established that the average of individual day traders yields less than the market average. Individual day traders may perform differently. Equivalently, the average day trader has no greater insight than the average trader, and hence they will always lose through fees alone. There's nothing particularly astonishing about this. Likewise, actively managed funds performs worse than trackers, on average, after fees. It's the expectation of outperforming the market that presumably drives both. That or a bit of fun.

[bulltraderpt]

Agreed on Hurricane. I orginally bought at 57p and sold at 66p before they crashed. I now have a fair few which I bought at 38p, they are just about turning blue but hopefully they'll go to 55p plus.
I've added PANR to my watchlist, thanks for the tip.
Are you really day-trading? If so, that takes some cojones.

I am, I don't lie. I approach it as a business, full system set up, multiple monitors, RNS advfn paid subscription level 2 feed and bt infinity set up.

It's been a learning curve, fortunately when I have screwed up, I've nail my ego down long enough not to let it ever take me out of the game. Too many times you see on bb's people getting wedded to positions. If you treat the market like a whore (because it's always trying to f... you, you won't go far wrong).

As to your last statement, the psychological pressure is intense but you just have to get use to it and play what you see. Plenty of cracking trading books out there, but it's the psychology of trading which is hardest aspect (of trading) to master I'd suggest.

[andyg]

Pantheon

I've never used IG for share purchases, although I do use IG for their visual and sound alerts.

As for HUR it's on my watch list and one I have actively traded before, but as with all Oil and Exploration stocks you get a burst of activity then they tend to go quiet. However I have been preoccupied with other stocks and will take another look at that over the weekend, cheers. Judging from the daily it's starting to gain some traction.

If you really want a punt then look at PANR, sentiment is firmly against it, but, if the bulls have it right and the results are positive this could start to turn but there concerns over what they can and cannot get out of the well if it is indeed properly positive. Not for widows or orphans, but what stocks are anymore?

Agreed on Hurricane. I orginally bought at 57p and sold at 66p before they crashed. I now have a fair few which I bought at 38p, they are just about turning blue but hopefully they'll go to 55p plus.
I've added PANR to my watchlist, thanks for the tip.
Are you really day-trading? If so, that takes some cojones.

[bulltraderpt]

Have a look at IG. I use them for buying and selling shares. SDRT are paid on the point of purchase.
Hurricane Energy are worth a look

I've never used IG for share purchases, although I do use IG for their visual and sound alerts.

As for HUR it's on my watch list and one I have actively traded before, but as with all Oil and Exploration stocks you get a burst of activity then they tend to go quiet. However I have been preoccupied with other stocks and will take another look at that over the weekend, cheers. Judging from the daily it's starting to gain some traction.

If you really want a punt then look at PANR, sentiment is firmly against it, but, if the bulls have it right and the results are positive this could start to turn but there concerns over what they can and cannot get out of the well if it is indeed properly positive. Not for widows or orphans, but what stocks are anymore?

[andyg]

IG

Have a look at IG. I use them for buying and selling shares. SDRT are paid on the point of purchase.
Hurricane Energy are worth a look