How to decide whether to switch to permie?

[kaiser78]

I have a possible job offer in Barcelona & after 7 years of contracting, I'm considering it. I know the city quite well (I spent 6 months there as an Erasmus student). In the UK, contracting has been my preferred way of working. If I had to sum up my reasons: better rates, more interesting projects, more time off and, lately, more remote working opportunities.
...

This is such a personal dilemma which only you can answer. Go with your gut feel, which deep down is always the right decision (at the time).

[ginjar]

Contracting set me free

From being a good and conscientious person?

Don't you think an excess of loyalty and fellow-feeling is a liability whatever the contractual arrangement?

As a contractor you'll end up delivering vastly more than what is actually entailed by the contract simply because it's what needs to get done. You want to see the project work and you'd rather just get on with it than haggle over what you've committed to do. I've found this to be a problem with smaller clients don't know what they're asking for.

I reckon my style of working makes me better suited to contracting but I'll keep an open mind. As you say, there's nothing much lost if I try it for a year or so and switch back again.

[Willapp]

Well there have been lots of threads about the financial pros and cons of contractor vs. permiedom, which usually boil down to you being worse off in a permie role (unless you're *very* fortunate or on a crap day rate for your given field) but the job security + benefits + potential to learn new skills are given to offset this.

On that last point if your perm role doesn't offer much opportunity to gain new skills then I agree it doesn't seem so appealing. I'm in a vaguely similar position (minus the emigration) as I've been working the same contract for 2.5 years and have decided to finish end of June. Luckily I know someone prepared to give me a contract that will involve a mixture of existing + new skills but I know that's not normal.

For me the biggest switch from contract to perm is the mental attitude: I love going in and doing a good job, making a real impact to the business, but forgetting all about it as I walk out of the client's office at the end of each day, because the burdens of their business aren't mine to bear. In previous perm roles I've found the stress grows over time as - if you're good and a conscientious person - you tend to take on additional responsibilities and a sense of ownership over what you do. Some people love this but I grew to hate it as the job can then eat into your life and get you down. Contracting set me free.

[ginjar]

You usually regret the things you don't do more than the things you do.

-- Careful there! That's probably sound counsel for the most part but could be dangerous advice in the hands of, for example, the dice man.

Maybe I should just roll and see what number comes up?

But yes, the chance to experiment with something new, generally that's where I'm coming at this from.

The thread was partly about taking stock of the differences between contract/permie. So that I don't just jump straight into it and vaguely remember something about sky-high day rates and months of freedom while 'fighting over the scraps' in permiedom, as @squarepeg put it

I was also wondering whether it is worth switching from contract to permie if it *is* an experiment & something I'm not sure I'll stick to. That must add complications & in my case even more as I would be taxed in a different country with a different tax year.

& whether, if I am going for a permie job, it's better to hold out for something that would involve new technologies. The job in question is fairly similar skills-wise to past contracts & it seems like part of the benefit of permanent is that you don't need to be an expert in what you're working with from the start. At *some* point I would like to get out the box defined by my past contract work - surely this is a reason that many contractors switch, to gain new skills, and then perhaps switch back again.

[Willapp]

Surely the most important thing here is whether you want to relocate to a different country? It's quite a big life decision and I would put that ahead of any contract vs. permie choice.

I'm assuming you have no ties to the UK (wife, kids, poorly family members etc.) which gives you the freedom to live and work where ever you want? Given that you're familiar with Barcelona and would be happy living there, it sounds like a great opportunity to live a different lifestyle for a few years and that has got to be worth a lot in any decision. Assuming the permie package is enough to life the lifestyle you want, I'd say take it. You usually regret the things you don't do more than the things you do. Worst case? It doesn't work out so after 6 months or so you move back to the UK and find another contract. What have you really lost?

[ginjar]

Thanks for the responses.

Of course it's a personal choice & I'm not trying to crowd-source this decision! OTOH, it's worth bouncing these thoughts off around to get some perspective.

Agree with @theroyale about all the points in favour of contracting. When people have asked me in the past why I contract rather than have a proper job with security, I give similar reasons. I like the flexibility, variety & better money. Yup, sounds like contracting is a no-brainer for you, they say (or words to that effect).

So ... at the moment, it is mostly the attraction of Spain and hitting the Catalonian beaches, etc etc. There isn't much of a contract market in Spain from what I gather, so if I want to spend time there its either this or b) finding more remote contracts that I fulfill from a sun-filled terrace (or mediterranean co-working) or c) spending some time working on my own projects & find some way for them to bring in revenue.

b) was actually plan A but it hasn't been as easy as I thought.
c) is attractive but risky & figure I should plug away at one of these ideas while earning before taking that leap.

b) and c) are related in that personal projects could partly be about self-promotion and reputation-building, and in that b) could finance c). If I could count on a steady (ish) stream of remote work and I knew what the tax situation would be (sounds complicated), that would be my preference. But I don't have assurance of either of those.

I'll meet them next week so the first step is seeing whether I like the vibe, the job's interesting and the conditions are good (& I get the offer).

[theroyale]

ginjar, it seems to me that while you've listed out in good detail the pros and cons of contracting/permiedom in general, you haven't said enough about your own priorities and desires.

You ask at the end of your post, "How would you go about weighing up the pros and cons?". I'd say that entirely depends on each person. One person's pro can be another's con, I think. For me contracting-all-the-way and never-permie-again is so blindingly obvious, but that's me: I've built my "real life" around the months I choose to take off between contracts, I like the flexibility, I like working for myself, I like not attending appraisals and that kind of BS, I run a mile from "job stability", I don't care about or need medical or dental or any of that, and I generally have a large(r) appetite for risk and newness (comparing myself to my peers, uni friends etc here). But then that's me. We don't know your views on things like that - and I'd suggest that if you're thinking of making the move from contracting back to permanence, its those sorts of things you'll have to think of.

You clearly have a good contracting life. If you're still considering a switch to a lesser-paid permanent position and having to work under someone again, there must be something in it for you that you're 1) not telling us because you feel its irrelevant, or 2) you haven't voiced out to yourself clearly enough.

Maybe Barcelona is attractive. Maybe you're getting tired of how comfortable contracting in the UK can be (for some of us anyway going by the many moaners on this forum). Maybe you just want a change. Whatever it is, it seems like you know instinctively which way you're going already.

[WordIsBond]

How would you go about weighing up the pros and cons?

I'd give each one a numerical value of importance on a scale of 1-10.

Then, I'd discard anything that wasn't at least a five in importance -- they aren't really important.

Then, I'd look at the things that I'd given a five and ask, "Did I make this a five because I knew I was getting rid of the things that are four or below?" If so, I'd get rid of that, too.

Then, when looking at what is left, if the weight is heavily one way, do that. If I still didn't know, I'd flip a coin. And if I didn't like what the coin said, I'd flip and flip again until I got the answer I liked.

Shorter version: Decide based on what is important to you, and if that doesn't clearly decide it, just do what you flippin' want to do.

[Antman]

No dependents? Go for it.

I worked in Madrid for 6 years for a consultancy, I could go through the points you've raised and haven't raised but at the end of the day think of it as a life experience.

[nomadd]

I have a possible job offer in Barcelona & after 7 years of contracting, I'm considering it. I know the city quite well (I spent 6 months there as an Erasmus student). In the UK, contracting has been my preferred way of working. If I had to sum up my reasons: better rates, more interesting projects, more time off and, lately, more remote working opportunities.

I wouldn't be considering the switch if it were a UK position but still need to decide whether it's worth leaving the perks of contracting.

For the past two years all my work has been remote (save about 15 days on site) - so that would be the main adjustment. The job would be office-based but it sounded like they would be open to some home working.

I don't know the exact details of the offer as they want to decide this after the interview in-person (a friend tells me this is not unusual in Spain).

I'm sure it will work out as less than what I earn contracting - but that's not a deal-breaker.

Benefits:

* Not having to look for new contracts.
* More straightforward contractual arrangement; not having to understand a new contract for each new project; less stress.
* More straightforward remuneration. Less time spent managing expenses/accounts/taxes.
* Hopefully a good office environment, easier sustaining work relationships
* Build up some track record of commitment (I have only ever worked briefly in a perm role, although one contract lasted two years). Some employers/agencies seem to think that if you only contract, your skills are stagnant. In my experience, you learn at least as much contracting. Technical training, for contractors, usually happens 'on the bench'. But it is harder to play a part in deciding long-term strategy.
* Possibly training/conferences/etc - I'm not sure how often these things happen in practice.
* Sick pay/ Holiday pay/ etc. (though I'm probably happier with a higher pay and covering these myself)

Drawbacks:

* Having to re-learn what it's like to commute and work in an office (which I would anyway unless I could find more remote work).
* Less pay
* Less time off
* Less clearly-defined boundaries viz. what I'm being paid to do.
* Harder to switch to new, potentially more attractive, projects
* Would have to cover some of the costs of running my ltd company this year (17-18) anyway, i.e. accountancy and insurance (as still waiting on client payment for last project).
* Would like to work on web apps that could generate some income on the side (ok, this might never actually happen), which is easier if running other business through a ltd company.
* Would have to get my head around the Spanish tax/legal system.

Ok, there's probably more on both sides of the ledger, but that's all I can come up with right now.

Forgetting about the "Spanish factor" (or not), has anyone else here faced a similar dilemma?

How would you go about weighing up the pros and cons?

¿Qué?

(As other have mentioned, just do it. If it doesn't work out, come back to warm sunny Britain and the ever-available sky-high daily contract rates.)

[squarepeg]

Benefits:

* Not having to look for new contracts.

Always talk to agents, make sure you tell the good ones to call you on a monthly basis. You have no job security.

* More straightforward contractual arrangement; not having to understand a new contract for each new project; less stress.

You learn what stress is when you learn what a quarterly or annual performance review feels like...

* More straightforward remuneration. Less time spent managing expenses/accounts/taxes.

True.

* Hopefully a good office environment, easier sustaining work relationships

Possibly. Just don't brag about being a contractor in your former life. Permies hate us. Underdress for the job. Learn to eat tulip food and drink cheap alcohol. You may discover how little people need to be happy and how much you hate knowing that the managers know that and are happy to throw you scraps and watch you fetch.

* Build up some track record of commitment (I have only ever worked briefly in a perm role, although one contract lasted two years). Some employers/agencies seem to think that if you only contract, your skills are stagnant. In my experience, you learn at least as much contracting. Technical training, for contractors, usually happens 'on the bench'. But it is harder to play a part in deciding long-term strategy.

You actually listen to what agents say about commitment or skills? That's just a negotiation strategy, they are trying to make you value yourself less. Whenever someone says "well, you only worked there for three weeks" I tell them that such was the length of the contract (which is true).

As for learning on the job, it depends on the company/team culture. Some are fine to let techies spend three days reading documentation, some expect you to do it over the weekend/after hours.

* Possibly training/conferences/etc - I'm not sure how often these things happen in practice.

Ask your colleagues.

* Sick pay/ Holiday pay/ etc. (though I'm probably happier with a higher pay and covering these myself)

You are thinking like a contractor. Stop. You are not going to get a higher salary in lieu of statutory benefits and whatever corporate "benefits" the HR comes up with. Not gonna happen just for you. :-)

Drawbacks:

* Having to re-learn what it's like to commute and work in an office (which I would anyway unless I could find more remote work).

The first step is the hardest...

* Less pay

You did check local taxes and the cost of living, didn't you?

* Less time off

Only if you become known as the guy who will do it all by himself.

* Less clearly-defined boundaries viz. what I'm being paid to do.

Welcome to the permie world.

* Harder to switch to new, potentially more attractive, projects

Only if you have long notice periods or if you let yourself settle there and be bound by a long term commitment like a 12-month house/flat rental agreement, loan, or if you buy property. If you avoid these you will be able to move to other places in Spain or other countries with relative ease.

* Would have to cover some of the costs of running my ltd company this year (17-18) anyway, i.e. accountancy and insurance (as still waiting on client payment for last project).

Check your contract and Spanish employment laws to make sure you are allowed to run a business while you are employed.

* Would like to work on web apps that could generate some income on the side (ok, this might never actually happen), which is easier if running other business through a ltd company.

Time to check your contract and Spanish employment laws. Just in case your employer wants to own every line of code you write outside of work hours.

* Would have to get my head around the Spanish tax/legal system.

Get a Spanish accountant. Should be easy to find one, because there is a rather large British community in Spain.

[northernladuk]

How you see. That's how me and TF differ. I spend a bit more time on your post and consider the important aspects before jumping in comments, so... lets have a look....

I have a possible job offer in Barcelona <snip> TL;DR </snip>

Take it.

Sorted.

[MrMarkyMark]

FTFY

Just take the permie role if it pays you enough for your future Barcelona lifestyle and be done with it.

FTAOD, I didn't read anything other than the subject and the last line. But if you need the help of strangers on the internet to decide what to do, then take the permie job.

Otherwise I concur

[TheFaQQer]

How would you go about weighing up the pros and cons?

Just take the permie role and be done with it.

FTAOD, I didn't read anything other than the subject and the last line. But if you need the help of strangers on the internet to decide what to do, then take the permie job.

[ginjar]

I have a possible job offer in Barcelona & after 7 years of contracting, I'm considering it. I know the city quite well (I spent 6 months there as an Erasmus student). In the UK, contracting has been my preferred way of working. If I had to sum up my reasons: better rates, more interesting projects, more time off and, lately, more remote working opportunities.

I wouldn't be considering the switch if it were a UK position but still need to decide whether it's worth leaving the perks of contracting.

For the past two years all my work has been remote (save about 15 days on site) - so that would be the main adjustment. The job would be office-based but it sounded like they would be open to some home working.

I don't know the exact details of the offer as they want to decide this after the interview in-person (a friend tells me this is not unusual in Spain).

I'm sure it will work out as less than what I earn contracting - but that's not a deal-breaker.

Benefits:

* Not having to look for new contracts.
* More straightforward contractual arrangement; not having to understand a new contract for each new project; less stress.
* More straightforward remuneration. Less time spent managing expenses/accounts/taxes.
* Hopefully a good office environment, easier sustaining work relationships
* Build up some track record of commitment (I have only ever worked briefly in a perm role, although one contract lasted two years). Some employers/agencies seem to think that if you only contract, your skills are stagnant. In my experience, you learn at least as much contracting. Technical training, for contractors, usually happens 'on the bench'. But it is harder to play a part in deciding long-term strategy.
* Possibly training/conferences/etc - I'm not sure how often these things happen in practice.
* Sick pay/ Holiday pay/ etc. (though I'm probably happier with a higher pay and covering these myself)

Drawbacks:

* Having to re-learn what it's like to commute and work in an office (which I would anyway unless I could find more remote work).
* Less pay
* Less time off
* Less clearly-defined boundaries viz. what I'm being paid to do.
* Harder to switch to new, potentially more attractive, projects
* Would have to cover some of the costs of running my ltd company this year (17-18) anyway, i.e. accountancy and insurance (as still waiting on client payment for last project).
* Would like to work on web apps that could generate some income on the side (ok, this might never actually happen), which is easier if running other business through a ltd company.
* Would have to get my head around the Spanish tax/legal system.

Ok, there's probably more on both sides of the ledger, but that's all I can come up with right now.

Forgetting about the "Spanish factor" (or not), has anyone else here faced a similar dilemma?

How would you go about weighing up the pros and cons?