Reply to: Direct with a Startup: SDC

[VectraMan]

Pfft...pair programming is so last decade...all the cool kids are Mob Programming now

Sounds like the computer club at my middle school. 30 kids, 1 BBC Micro.

[jmo21]

Pfft...pair programming is so last decade...all the cool kids are Mob Programming now

[SeanT]

"Paul attends the interview where he meets the company directors who tell Paul they want him to design, build and place onto the internet, a new website for their business which will advertise and sell their products online. Discussions are held during which time Paul shows the directors his portfolio and websites he has previously created. The directors are impressed and Paul is offered the engagement, which he accepts. The Directors then tell Paul he has a completely free role to design and build the website as he sees fit without anyone being able to intervene to instruct Paul what the website must look like or how it must be created. The only specific requirement placed on Paul is that the new website is completed, placed on line and activated before his engagement ends. "

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...g_examples.pdf

Kill me now

[Spikeh]

No it isn't - the contractor is expected to pay the employees AND employers NI.

Yeah, I never thought of that part of it - so the agency / public sector body are taking PAYE, and then the contractor still has to pay employers NI once they get the reduced rate?

[cojak]

Well, isn't this basically what's happening in the public sector at the moment? Only there's no official line on rates being raised to compensate it - it's just happening (in some cases, at least).

No it isn't - the contractor is expected to pay the employees AND employers NI.

[Spikeh]

For clients, contractor = off-payroll temp while freelancer = independent guy doing stuff we need but don't understand.

That's the way the like it, because the perceived "control" gives them more certainty.

There ought to be a cost in the form of having to pay Employer's PAYE on top of whatever they pay the contractor (even if the contractor is otherwise paid gross) in exchange for that control (I hate to make comparisons with other countries, but... that's pretty much how it works in other countries).

Well, isn't this basically what's happening in the public sector at the moment? Only there's no official line on rates being raised to compensate it - it's just happening (in some cases, at least).

[Spikeh]

Pair programming is extreme version of agile. Not many people do that or like that. I don’t. You can pair with junior dev to teach him something or use it as knowledge transfer, but to do pairing on regular basic – thank you, but not for me.

Was asked by a client before if I'd done pair programming, and I haven't - they looked at me incredulously. I can see the appeal, but unless it's to train one person up, or to pass on knowledge, I don't see the commercial benefit.

[m0n1k3r]

Sounds like they want a temp not a contractor. Not uncommon with startups

For clients, contractor = off-payroll temp while freelancer = independent guy doing stuff we need but don't understand.

That's the way the like it, because the perceived "control" gives them more certainty.

There ought to be a cost in the form of having to pay Employer's PAYE on top of whatever they pay the contractor (even if the contractor is otherwise paid gross) in exchange for that control (I hate to make comparisons with other countries, but... that's pretty much how it works in other countries).

[AndrewK]

I don't see how, as a developer, you can do true agile and not be inside IR35.
What is paired programming if it's not SDC at a micro level?

Pair programming is extreme version of agile. Not many people do that or like that. I don’t. You can pair with junior dev to teach him something or use it as knowledge transfer, but to do pairing on regular basic – thank you, but not for me.

[Spikeh]

This is the guidance from the government. Ever heard of a company having a website designed where they had no control over what it looked like or what it did ?

"Paul attends the interview where he meets the company directors who tell Paul they want him to design, build and place onto the internet, a new website for their business which will advertise and sell their products online. Discussions are held during which time Paul shows the directors his portfolio and websites he has previously created. The directors are impressed and Paul is offered the engagement, which he accepts. The Directors then tell Paul he has a completely free role to design and build the website as he sees fit without anyone being able to intervene to instruct Paul what the website must look like or how it must be created. The only specific requirement placed on Paul is that the new website is completed, placed on line and activated before his engagement ends.

Yeah, I read that when it first appeared. Utter nonsense - even if you're a freelancer, you would never just go off and put together a client's website (or product) without their input.

[Spikeh]

That wasn't my point - my point was that the rules are stupid and impractical and I would fight them. Nobody tells me exactly what to do or how to do it but they are going to, on occasion, say something like 'Spikeh, spend an hour or so fixing this as we know you are awesome' ... Would you ask them for a new schedule ?

Of course not, unless it was a significant piece of work. I would (and have, regularly) raised issue when a client that asks me to "fix this" too often. Usually it's less of an ask, and more of a demand - until you sit them in a meeting room and explain why you're there and how the interruptions affect your project

[radish2008]

There's also the argument that I don't /want/ to be under a client's control - it's very rare that I need their input to do my job, apart from "We need a solution to XXX problem", followed by some requirement gathering. This of course comes with seniority and acceptance of responsibility, and doesn't apply to all contractors.

That wasn't my point - my point was that the rules are stupid and impractical and I would fight them. Nobody tells me exactly what to do or how to do it but they are going to, on occasion, say something like 'Spikeh, spend an hour or so fixing this as we know you are awesome' ... Would you ask them for a new schedule ?

[Spikeh]

I would say that you have to balance risk.

At the risk of being flamed by the IR35 warriors on here it's practically impossible to be in a normal working environment and not be under some (even tiny) degree of control. The stupid guidance on the government's website doesn't help.

So what do you do ? All of this only makes sense if they investigate you and don't forget they then have to win. That is the risk you need to balance.

There's also the argument that I don't /want/ to be under a client's control - it's very rare that I need their input to do my job, apart from "We need a solution to XXX problem", followed by some requirement gathering. This of course comes with seniority and acceptance of responsibility, and doesn't apply to all contractors.

[radish2008]

I agree. As much as I like AGILE and sprints, I still try to avoid them at all costs because of this. It's total madness, and causes no end of woes - I don't like being awkward with clients, but how can I be anything but? :|

I would say that you have to balance risk.

At the risk of being flamed by the IR35 warriors on here it's practically impossible to be in a normal working environment and not be under some (even tiny) degree of control. The stupid guidance on the government's website doesn't help.

So what do you do ? All of this only makes sense if they investigate you and don't forget they then have to win. That is the risk you need to balance.

This is the guidance from the government. Ever heard of a company having a website designed where they had no control over what it looked like or what it did ?

"Paul attends the interview where he meets the company directors who tell Paul they want him to design, build and place onto the internet, a new website for their business which will advertise and sell their products online. Discussions are held during which time Paul shows the directors his portfolio and websites he has previously created. The directors are impressed and Paul is offered the engagement, which he accepts. The Directors then tell Paul he has a completely free role to design and build the website as he sees fit without anyone being able to intervene to instruct Paul what the website must look like or how it must be created. The only specific requirement placed on Paul is that the new website is completed, placed on line and activated before his engagement ends. "

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...g_examples.pdf

[Spikeh]

I don't see how, as a developer, you can do true agile and not be inside IR35.
What is paired programming if it's not SDC at a micro level?

I agree. As much as I like AGILE and sprints, I still try to avoid them at all costs because of this. It's total madness, and causes no end of woes - I don't like being awkward with clients, but how can I be anything but? :|