Reply to: Agent trying to reduce agreed day rate.

[Bee]

That's a real generalisation. In my experience (10+ years as an agent), there can be a legitimate 2nd round of negotiations. If the client is 50/50 on a decision because two contractors can deliver then he may go for the cheapest. If the agency knows this is the case then he/she may come back to you and try to renegotiate to secure the contract.

I'm not saying it happens in every instance (there are of course times that they are purely trying to increase their margin) but the market is super competitive and £10 a day can be the decider between two very close candidates.

Negotiation has been part of business since people were trading spices in 1st century Egypt, you can't call it bad business or dodgy agent, they're just doig their job as will you be.

I disagree, If the Client agreed in a X rate with an Agency and the agent agreed with contractor Y rate, taking already in consideration the margins of the Agency, those rates should be maintained, otherwise they are going back with the agreement, they word and will be considered not trustful.

This kind of behavior in some cultures (most that I know in US and Europe) are unacceptable and difficult to understand.

If you want to introduce in the UK the Egyptian, Indian, Muslims..etc culture "kind of negotiations" thinking only on their selves it's another story. The principle of a negotiation is when both sides has a good agreement.

[LondonManc]

As i would say 80% (being generous) of times this happens are the Agent trying to pull a fast one, is there any doubt as to why there is a lack of trust

None whatsoever Simon. As I said in a previous thread, 90% of agents give the rest a bad name.

There won't be any transparency of fee structures while they can get away with it.

[SimonMac]

+1

The biggest problem is the inherent and generally warranted lack of trust, not knowing whether the reduction request is genuine or they're just after a bigger slice of your pie.

As MMM says can happen, I've also gone back to an agent after an interview and said that it's a much more demanding role and needs an extra 50/day to warrant it.

It's partly how well you know your agent - if you say £600 per day and the agent knows that's the minimum you'd take or that's what you're hoping for (when the agent is on a percentage, he'd rather pocket 12% of £600 than 12% of 550 or 500.

As i would say 80% (being generous) of times this happens are the Agent trying to pull a fast one, is there any doubt as to why there is a lack of trust

[northernladuk]

I wonder what will happen if in this situation you say "OK, Mr Agent, if the rate we initially agreed is no longer achievable I can accept a lower one but only if there will be just one week, not two weeks notice in the contract". This way the guy will quickly realise that you are going to stay on the market working with him only until a better deal comes.

Lots of could be's but it is likely the client is dictating the notice period so the agent won't have much say in it.

I also think they are smarter than that. They dealt with 100's of contractors who try to be smart but they also see how many fold, like asking for rate rises. Contractor threatens to walk but in 99.9% cases the agent knows they won't.

[Criticular]

I wonder what will happen if in this situation you say "OK, Mr Agent, if the rate we initially agreed is no longer achievable I can accept a lower one but only if there will be just one week, not two weeks notice in the contract". This way the guy will quickly realise that you are going to stay on the market working with him only until a better deal comes.

[LondonManc]

That's a real generalisation. In my experience (10+ years as an agent), there can be a legitimate 2nd round of negotiations. If the client is 50/50 on a decision because two contractors can deliver then he may go for the cheapest. If the agency knows this is the case then he/she may come back to you and try to renegotiate to secure the contract.

I'm not saying it happens in every instance (there are of course times that they are purely trying to increase their margin) but the market is super competitive and £10 a day can be the decider between two very close candidates.

Negotiation has been part of business since people were trading spices in 1st century Egypt, you can't call it bad business or dodgy agent, they're just doig their job as will you be.

+1

The biggest problem is the inherent and generally warranted lack of trust, not knowing whether the reduction request is genuine or they're just after a bigger slice of your pie.

As MMM says can happen, I've also gone back to an agent after an interview and said that it's a much more demanding role and needs an extra 50/day to warrant it.

It's partly how well you know your agent - if you say £600 per day and the agent knows that's the minimum you'd take or that's what you're hoping for (when the agent is on a percentage, he'd rather pocket 12% of £600 than 12% of 550 or 500.

[MrMarkyMark]

That's a real generalisation. In my experience (10+ years as an agent), there can be a legitimate 2nd round of negotiations. If the client is 50/50 on a decision because two contractors can deliver then he may go for the cheapest. If the agency knows this is the case then he/she may come back to you and try to renegotiate to secure the contract.

I'm not saying it happens in every instance (there are of course times that they are purely trying to increase their margin) but the market is super competitive and £10 a day can be the decider between two very close candidates.

Negotiation has been part of business since people were trading spices in 1st century Egypt, you can't call it bad business or dodgy agent, they're just doig their job as will you be.

There can also be be a legitimate round of negotiations where the contractor speaks to the client and then decides to increase his or her rate based on those conversations.

Its not unheard of for a contractor to not be happy and therefore ask for more, or to be offered a more senior role by the client once they have been interviewed, to take two examples.

[Agent]

It's what I do, I tell them a higher rate in order to negotiate.



A talented and a decent Agent would not came back after the negotiation to ask to decrease the negotiated rate. If we act like this is normal, in a few years will have to be prepare for the negotiation n times...

That's a real generalisation. In my experience (10+ years as an agent), there can be a legitimate 2nd round of negotiations. If the client is 50/50 on a decision because two contractors can deliver then he may go for the cheapest. If the agency knows this is the case then he/she may come back to you and try to renegotiate to secure the contract.

I'm not saying it happens in every instance (there are of course times that they are purely trying to increase their margin) but the market is super competitive and £10 a day can be the decider between two very close candidates.

Negotiation has been part of business since people were trading spices in 1st century Egypt, you can't call it bad business or dodgy agent, they're just doig their job as will you be.

[LondonManc]

For every thread that says "the agent tried to lower the rate", I believe that there are many more situations where people don't start a thread to say "the agent didn't try to lower my rate". I'm sure that there are some agents out there who do this - otherwise there wouldn't be threads about it.

I don't believe that most agents operate in this way, though.

I wouldn't care to speculate on a percentage of what agents operate what way.
I know that I've only had two argue the toss of what rate I'd take when I've been lead candidate after the interviews have taken place. One of those was because the hiring manager was well over his budgeted rate (it was public sector) and I was already at the bottom end of what I'd have taken. I politely declined.

If an agent is on a percentage of your rate, it's in their interest to get you as good a rate as they can and that goes hand in hand with him putting the best candidates forward. If the client then wants to go cheap, that's their call.

Possibly but we also then see plenty of threads where the contractor finds the agent didn't lower the rate but is on over 20% as well so the agent not lowering the rate is not to say the contractor is still being screwed over.

<snipped off topic bit>

The 20% won't be a markup, it'll simply be their cut of a budget. As long as you're getting what rate you want, are you really saying that you'd feel like you're being screwed over if you found out the agent is getting 20%? I'd say that there's room for negotiation at renewal.

[northernladuk]

For every thread that says "the agent tried to lower the rate", I believe that there are many more situations where people don't start a thread to say "the agent didn't try to lower my rate". I'm sure that there are some agents out there who do this - otherwise there wouldn't be threads about it.

I don't believe that most agents operate in this way, though.

Possibly but we also then see plenty of threads where the contractor finds the agent didn't lower the rate but is on over 20% as well so the agent not lowering the rate is not to say the contractor is still being screwed over.

That said reading back I've gone slightly off topic and started talking about agents being greedy in general when this one is specifically focussed on them lowering the rate after discussing a figure so I'll park it now.

[missinggreenfields]

Try a search.. 100s of threads talking about it on here. I've had two that I can remember. One particularly amusing one was the agent coming back and said another candidate said he'd do it for £10 a day less would I go £20... 20 quid Gotta try harder than that.

They are out there. You will come across them. It's the newbies that will get stung the hardest.

To be fair you are all right. Most may not lower after negotiation. They will have dropped the price first and then you have to negotiated. I was including this in 'most' so yes. Could be a fair shout.

For every thread that says "the agent tried to lower the rate", I believe that there are many more situations where people don't start a thread to say "the agent didn't try to lower my rate". I'm sure that there are some agents out there who do this - otherwise there wouldn't be threads about it.

I don't believe that most agents operate in this way, though.

[LondonManc]

Conclusion:

Negotiated rate = Rate + X + Y + Z

X= Amount to deduce in the 1st negotiation.
Y= Amount to deduce in the 2nd negotiation.
Z= Amount to deduce in an eventualy 3rd negotiation.
...
...
n

Interesting guess/speculation.

Tends not to happen that way in percentage-based agencies.

PS is terrible for it (agency gets a budget). What's the cheapest that you'll do it for? is an opening gambit that I have seen so often.

[LondonManc]

Yes. I have an annoying habit of reading from the top down and replying to posts as I see them rather than reading the entire thread and then going back and replying to the ones that I want to reply to. That's why I missed that the poster had already replied by the time I responded.

Then you're excused

[MrMarkyMark]

This is even more likely to happen if there are multiple tiers of agents involved.

Never happened to me too, but I'm a newbie in contracting so I'm not counting.

Its not just you are a newbie, how many times have you dealt with Swiss or American agents, they are a lot different to deal with than British ones?

Have you even had any UK contracts, going through a UK based agency?

The Swiss tend to be far more thorough and professional in the main, for example, than their British counterparts.

[northernladuk]

Citation needed - you must deal with some crappy agents if that's the way they work. The majority of the ones that I deal with are on a percentage basis so it's always in their best interests to get the highest rate for me - the only ones that have tried to negotiate lower (and never before the CV went in) have been the in-house recruiters at places like Steria, where they are trying to reduce cost to the project.

Try a search.. 100s of threads talking about it on here. I've had two that I can remember. One particularly amusing one was the agent coming back and said another candidate said he'd do it for £10 a day less would I go £20... 20 quid Gotta try harder than that.

They are out there. You will come across them. It's the newbies that will get stung the hardest.

To be fair you are all right. Most may not lower after negotiation. They will have dropped the price first and then you have to negotiated. I was including this in 'most' so yes. Could be a fair shout.