Reply to: IR35 and client's canteen

[itjobs]

Aren't we taking this (IR35) a bit too far? During contract in CPH the company provided free breakfast, free lunch and free evening snack (if you are working beyond certain evening hours like 17:00 hrs), HMRC never complained.

[kaiser78]

I have been told the lunches in the canteen are partly subsidised by the clientco. So to protect my IR35 status I just go to supermarket and buy my lunch there. Is this the reasonable precaution or am I worrying too much?

What are the chances realistically of you being caught in this situation - extremely slim to none ?? Fill your boots and pig out.

[jamesbrown]

Not sure what you're both arguing over TBH. You're both right to a degree. I assume there will be some legislative underpinning in the ITEPA (w/r to who is responsible for determining status), but the actual determinants of IR35 status aren't in legislation anyway. They are based on case law. None of that is changing, but it is being circumvented with the new PS rules, and the scope of the PS tests will be different than the scope of case law. In other words, your status may not have changed, fundamentally, but it will have changed for all practical purposes.

[eek]

So, the rules for determining IR35 aren't changing.

Thanks for clarifying that

Which point of the test being based solely on supervision direction and control did you fail to read and comprehend

[missinggreenfields]

Legislation? - HMRC have found a way of avoiding that by moving the liability from us to the party "employing" us - and most agencies are just gong to pay up.

So, the rules for determining IR35 aren't changing.

Thanks for clarifying that

[eek]

Thanks - can you provide a link to the legislation that changes the requirement for being inside IR35 from the requirement of all three pillars of employment? I must have missed it.

Legislation? - HMRC have found a way of avoiding that by moving the liability from us to the party "employing" us - and most agencies are just going to pay up.

You can start at http://forums.contractoruk.com/futur...-launched.html but I think any of the first 3 non sticky threads in that forum will give you the story

[missinggreenfields]

Yes they are in the public sector - granted you could fight over money that the end client has already sent to HMRC in a non-refundable format (National Insurance) but I can't see anyone putting much effort into that...

Thanks - can you provide a link to the legislation that changes the requirement for being inside IR35 from the requirement of all three pillars of employment? I must have missed it.

[eek]

The rules for determining IR35 are not changing (unless there is something new in the Autumn Statement).

Yes they are in the public sector - granted you could fight over money that the end client has already sent to HMRC in a non-refundable format (National Insurance) but I can't see anyone putting much effort into that...

[missinggreenfields]

I do sympathise with the original poster's plight, particularly in light of the uncertainty over what the future holds for IR35 come next April.

The rules for determining IR35 are not changing (unless there is something new in the Autumn Statement).

[KUWTC]

I do sympathise with the original poster's plight, particularly in light of the uncertainty over what the future holds for IR35 come next April.

[LondonManc]

Well most sausage rolls in clientco canteens are soggy and laying around for most of the day, t least in greggs they are fresh.

Tip for the OP: park in guest parking places. Parking in employee spaces will throw you inside IR35 (make a photo every day as proof)

Greggs sausage rolls appear to come in two temperatures - molten lava or polar ice cap.

[MrMarkyMark]

Hence, all it takes is a successful and clever interpretation by the HMRC lawyers, and any one can be done under the IR35 law.

If you are too unlucky, a simple act of taking free coffee at your client's place can be twisted by HMRC as you being an employee of your client, hence caught under IR35 - this one might be an exaggeration, but they can do it!

I call absolute BS. Why do you think HMRC have won so few cases, if what you say is true?

As for saying an occasional free cup of coffee can prove you are caught is rubbish, there would have to be a hell of a lot more to the case than that.
Yes, IR35 is something to worry about, not to be totally paranoid about

[Eirikur]

Greggs. Nicer. Hmmmm

Well most sausage rolls in clientco canteens are soggy and laying around for most of the day, t least in greggs they are fresh.

Tip for the OP: park in guest parking places. Parking in employee spaces will throw you inside IR35 (make a photo every day as proof)

[LondonManc]

The highlighted bits there - that is exactly the problem with regards to IR35, hence my comment.
No one in the entire world knows what one can do to obey the IR35 law as you call it (i.e. to be outside).
Every single thing in the IR35 legislation is subject to interpretation and confusion.
No one knows what is the correct meaning of anything under that law, not even HMRC themselves.
This is why they try and bring in some tests (BETs), then they remove it, then they sit and re-think, etc,. etc. etc. and it never seems to end.
There is also a huge big market of lawyers, Insurance companies etc proposing to fight the IR35 cases, insure your tax payments in case you fail the case, etc.
Its a witches brew/nightmare legislation, to be honest.

Hence, all it takes is a successful and clever interpretation by the HMRC lawyers, and any one can be done under the IR35 law.

If you are too unlucky, a simple act of taking free coffee at your client's place can be twisted by HMRC as you being an employee of your client, hence caught under IR35 - this one might be an exaggeration, but they can do it!

They've over-complicated it. It should be simple. There should be a simple checklist where you need to ensure, say, 80% compliance. There are negatives that point to employment rights - sick pay and all the other employment rights - and positives that point to operating as a business - PLI/PI insurance, company website, company stationery, accountant engaged, etc.

[Milkyway]

Well, that changes my perception of reality. The fundamental difference between the UK and say North Korea is that if you obey the law then the government cannot make you do something which you are not supposed to do under this law.
Are there any examples of getting someone done for IR35 regardless of following the rules?

The highlighted bits there - that is exactly the problem with regards to IR35, hence my comment.
No one in the entire world knows what one can do to obey the IR35 law as you call it (i.e. to be outside).
Every single thing in the IR35 legislation is subject to interpretation and confusion.
No one knows what is the correct meaning of anything under that law, not even HMRC themselves.
This is why they try and bring in some tests (BETs), then they remove it, then they sit and re-think, etc,. etc. etc. and it never seems to end.
There is also a huge big market of lawyers, Insurance companies etc proposing to fight the IR35 cases, insure your tax payments in case you fail the case, etc.
Its a witches brew/nightmare legislation, to be honest.

Hence, all it takes is a successful and clever interpretation by the HMRC lawyers, and any one can be done under the IR35 law.

If you are too unlucky, a simple act of taking free coffee at your client's place can be twisted by HMRC as you being an employee of your client, hence caught under IR35 - this one might be an exaggeration, but they can do it!