Originally posted by northernladuk
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Previously on "IR35 Working Practices Review and Software Code Reviews"
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Originally posted by dx4100 View PostOk that is all cool... I wouldn't expect anything less...
Maybe I was being too anal with what was posted but I got the impression QDOS was saying, if its ever found they don't match they won't pay. Which of course pretty much make the insurance useless to any agency contractor.
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Originally posted by dx4100 View PostOk that is all cool... I wouldn't expect anything less...
Maybe I was being too anal with what was posted but I got the impression QDOS was saying, if its ever found they don't match they won't pay. Which of course pretty much make the insurance useless to any agency contractor.
Organisations like IPSE are membership organisations who provide insurance offerings as part of their membership.
This subtle difference means they would help you in slightly different ways in the event you can prove the agency lied.
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Originally posted by northernladuk View PostI'd be surprised if any of the insurers are any different TBH.
Same for medical / travel / home insurance etc - you can't rely on a "you didn't ask me so I didn't tell you" defence, which you can in some contracts.
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Originally posted by northernladuk View Post^ This.
They will take the risk because they cannot see it. If you manage to get it and it doesn't the evidence is there and they will walk away. It's a bit similar to RoS. If it's in the contract they will pass it on the assumption the client will honour it and fight it later. If you find out your client won't honour it they won't insure you regardless of what's in the contract.
I'd be surprised if any of the insurers are any different TBH.
Maybe I was being too anal with what was posted but I got the impression QDOS was saying, if its ever found they don't match they won't pay. Which of course pretty much make the insurance useless to any agency contractor.
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Originally posted by SueEllen View PostYou never have the upper contract to review as legally you are not party to it so there is absolutely no reason you should be given it.
In the cases where I've seen parts of the upper contract I've already been in the contract and it's accidental.
What you can insist on is that the agent ensures that the upper contract and your contract have terms that are copied and compatible. For example if the upper contract doesn't mention WFH just working on the client site then your contract shouldn't mention that you can WFH. Then if you are allowed to WFH you need to get it recorded as an agreement between you and the client.
The insurer is taking the risk that the agency are not complete liars, and both the upper contract and your contract are compatible.
If there is a case where the agency completely lied even after the contractor has it on record they asked the agency to confirm the contracts were compatible then organisations like ISPSE and FSB, after a long IR35 fight, would happily help you sue the agency. This is because they are membership organisations not just insurers so case law is important to them.
They will take the risk because they cannot see it. If you manage to get it and it doesn't the evidence is there and they will walk away. It's a bit similar to RoS. If it's in the contract they will pass it on the assumption the client will honour it and fight it later. If you find out your client won't honour it they won't insure you regardless of what's in the contract.
I'd be surprised if any of the insurers are any different TBH.
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Originally posted by dx4100 View PostOk to clarify....
If you have the upper contract to review... or you have information about the upper contract then fine. That is understandable...
But in the majority of cases (I presume) you don't have such information... So in those cases you might lose and you still think its ok the insurance does not pay out ?
In the cases where I've seen parts of the upper contract I've already been in the contract and it's accidental.
What you can insist on is that the agent ensures that the upper contract and your contract have terms that are copied and compatible. For example if the upper contract doesn't mention WFH just working on the client site then your contract shouldn't mention that you can WFH. Then if you are allowed to WFH you need to get it recorded as an agreement between you and the client.
Originally posted by dx4100 View PostIf all I have is the lower contract, it gets passed and insurance offered... I would presume the insurance is taking that calculated risk that the upper contract might ruin everything.
If there is a case where the agency completely lied even after the contractor has it on record they asked the agency to confirm the contracts were compatible then organisations like ISPSE and FSB, after a long IR35 fight, would happily help you sue the agency. This is because they are membership organisations not just insurers so case law is important to them.
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Originally posted by dx4100 View PostOk to clarify....
If you have the upper contract to review... or you have information about the upper contract then fine. That is understandable...
But in the majority of cases (I presume) you don't have such information... So in those cases you might lose and you still think its ok the insurance does not pay out ?
If all I have is the lower contract, it gets passed and insurance offered... I would presume the insurance is taking that calculated risk that the upper contract might ruin everything.
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Originally posted by sdyson31 View PostAgency has confirmed that they won't be able to amend the upper level contract as client uses the global contract template which can't be amended.
I am certain that this contract would fail on substitution clauses as i won't be able to send someone to complete the job. It is up to agency to send someone not me. I know there are other elements in the test but substitution is a key one.
IT contractors warned on IR35 substitution clauses :: Contractor UK
It is also clear you have not understood my post either.
You should either use an umbrella company or go back to being permanent as the concepts are not hard to understand.
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Originally posted by sdyson31 View PostI have decided to move on, rates are not negotiable.
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Originally posted by northernladuk View PostErm.. Why? Seems pretty reasonable. The OP has posted an example of a loss due to contracts not matching so it's proven case law. Why on earth would they insure that?
If you have the upper contract to review... or you have information about the upper contract then fine. That is understandable...
But in the majority of cases (I presume) you don't have such information... So in those cases you might lose and you still think its ok the insurance does not pay out ?
If all I have is the lower contract, it gets passed and insurance offered... I would presume the insurance is taking that calculated risk that the upper contract might ruin everything.
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Originally posted by dx4100 View PostBloody hell... Glad I don't use QDOS then...
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Originally posted by sdyson31 View PostI did speak to someone in QDos this morning he mentioned both contract has to mirror otherwise even insurance won't protect you.
I have decided to move on, rates are not negotiable.
How can they say that considering you almost never see the upper contract....Last edited by dx4100; 26 May 2016, 12:02.
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Originally posted by dx4100 View PostAbbeyTax and QDos review based on your contract with the agency. The don't see the top contract.
Why don't you just get that contract reviewed and take out the tax loss insurance.
We can't do much about a contract we never see. Its always going to be a danger point of going via an agency most the time.
I have decided to move on, rates are not negotiable.
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