Reply to: Client refused working from home and time off - switch to perm?

[MrMarkyMark]

If they have no one else who can do what you do, that's helpful from an IR35 standpoint.

If you go perm, if your business is going to stop trading you can close it and get your two years warchest out using ER.

Just bear in mind that you wont be able to contract again, in what you do now, for 2 years, under the new rules.

[WordIsBond]

If they have no one else who can do what you do, that's helpful from an IR35 standpoint.

If you go perm, if your business is going to stop trading you can close it and get your two years warchest out using ER.

[MrMarkyMark]

That is a very good point and something I had overlooked. A contract update to reflect an MSP arrangement kicks IR35 well out of the picture in that respect. It's so close to being that already given what I provide them with I can't see the client having any issues. Depends how serious they are about their permie plans I guess.

It will help with being able to provide "subbies", as well, obviously not in the standard contractor sense.
I'm looking at something similar soon, myself, for obvious reasons.

NL's and my invoice is in the post

[funkyd]

True .



This. Especially if he is doing everything as he says.
Maybe he has more than one contract with this client co?
If he can set up a proper managed service arrangement, it would definitely get rid of all the "ball ache", as suggested.

That is a very good point and something I had overlooked. A contract update to reflect an MSP arrangement kicks IR35 well out of the picture in that respect. It's so close to being that already given what I provide them with I can't see the client having any issues. Depends how serious they are about their permie plans I guess.

[MrMarkyMark]

The initial question about time of an comments about permie roles on the table and being replaced by a permie just doesn't seem to fit in..

True .

Another thought though. If you do all this why are you not on their PSL and have proper engagement model that would make you look like a bum on seat contractor. Surely doing all this you could have supplied other services from someone else and ringfenced areas of work for yourself rather than being a contractor offering extras. Would save all this ball ache.

This. Especially if he is doing everything as he says.
Maybe he has more than one contract with this client co?
If he can set up a proper managed service arrangement, it would definitely get rid of all the "ball ache", as suggested.

[northernladuk]

All good pointers, as it will show you have a B2B arrangement, IMO.

Absolutely but something has fundamentally changed here going forward.

We are probably pissing in the wind talking about this as the OP seems to have most of it covered. Still can help feeling a little nervous. The initial question about time of an comments about permie roles on the table and being replaced by a permie just doesn't seem to fit in.

Only the OP really knows. Most of the other pointers mentioned are just too trivial to over come a part and parcel situation.

Anyway. Get your contract and working practices fully reviewed by QDOS, take IR35 insurance out and then Just go with your guy feeling based on all that.

Another thought though. If you do all this why are you not on their PSL and have proper engagement model that would make you look like a bum on seat contractor. Surely doing all this you could have supplied other services from someone else and ringfenced areas of work for yourself rather than being a contractor offering extras. Would save all this ball ache.

[MrMarkyMark]

I also use my own systems and equipment to support my role and have sold them my managed services, corporate branded AV software etc etc

All good pointers, as it will show you have a B2B arrangement, IMO.

[funkyd]

Actually requesting approval for time off isn't a flag in itself. Professional courtesy should have you making sure your time off won't impact any plans the client has and them saying 'OK' isn't directly and indicate of D&C but don't focus on minor flags and forget the bigger picture. Paying lipservice to minor processes like this and forgetting you are now part and parcel is one of the biggest mistakes tick box contractors make. If they treat you like a permie then you have a world of problems and a simple request process isn't going to fix it.

IR35 is on a contract by contract basis. You can have one inside and one outside. Having multiple revenue streams was good for the old BETs and an indicator you are a business but it does not put you in the clear for each individual contract.

Yep - I agree. Which is why in all the years I've never attended the Christmas party, staff meetings, internal strategy presentations or any of that stuff. If it's staff only I politely make my excuses - they think I'm a bit odd and a social outcast but I've paid my mortgage off. I can live with it.

I also use my own systems and equipment to support my role and have sold them my managed services, corporate branded AV software etc etc

[northernladuk]

I've downloaded the IPSE guide to IR35 to refresh my memory and got an appointment with my accountant.

A thought is that the client needs (rather than simply wishes) me to be here so it's perhaps not as controlling as first thought - it's not as if all the work I do can be done from home so the client maybe has a point. Nobody else can fix the server and they are paying me to be here should anything happen. There is no other resource that could do what I do so there is an expectation that I be here all the time to cover business hours.

What I need to do is tighten up the agreement I have with a Real Arrangements letter and either carry on or bring in additional resource to so that I can be away more easily. Having an additional resource bolsters my IR35 status and means I can go and search for new contracts like a business owner should. I'm IR35 safe, client is even happier because they are getting a better service. Hopefully.

All subject to advice of course. If the client isn't happy well then I will have to consider other options.

Actually requesting approval for time off isn't a flag in itself. Professional courtesy should have you making sure your time off won't impact any plans the client has and them saying 'OK' isn't directly and indicate of D&C but don't focus on minor flags and forget the bigger picture. Paying lipservice to minor processes like this and forgetting you are now part and parcel is one of the biggest mistakes tick box contractors make. If they treat you like a permie then you have a world of problems and a simple request process isn't going to fix it.

IR35 is on a contract by contract basis. You can have one inside and one outside. Having multiple revenue streams was good for the old BETs and an indicator you are a business but it does not put you in the clear for each individual contract.

[funkyd]

I've downloaded the IPSE guide to IR35 to refresh my memory and got an appointment with my accountant.

A thought is that the client needs (rather than simply wishes) me to be here so it's perhaps not as controlling as first thought - it's not as if all the work I do can be done from home so the client maybe has a point. Nobody else can fix the server and they are paying me to be here should anything happen. There is no other resource that could do what I do so there is an expectation that I be here all the time to cover business hours.

What I need to do is tighten up the agreement I have with a Real Arrangements letter and either carry on or bring in additional resource to so that I can be away more easily. Having an additional resource bolsters my IR35 status and means I can go and search for new contracts like a business owner should. I'm IR35 safe, client is even happier because they are getting a better service. Hopefully.

All subject to advice of course. If the client isn't happy well then I will have to consider other options.

[MrMarkyMark]

I meant the WFH refusal and client attitude to time off...

OK, but this could raise the D&C flag.

Which is why it is better to get these sort of things agreed before commencing the contract.

In the OPs case, obviously, he did this and his situation has changed, hence his concern.

I had a similar situation recently and I refused to sign the amended contract.
I refused to sign, as my working practices would not reflect asking for time off with 30 days prior notice.
I did have a slight fight on my hands, however, I stuck to my guns, explained why and they agreed to stick with the original contract terms.

[LondonManc]

I meant the WFH refusal and client attitude to time off...

Bulltulip. This has been flagged at contract reviews as an IR35 indicator. If it's now the de facto working practice, then OP is caught.

[psychocandy]

Disguised employees maybe need time off for family or something or other, but if you're paying a business quite a lot to provide a service it's reasonable to expect them to provide that service when you need them. You wouldn't expect your mobile phone service to take a day off for family or something or other.

Just saying.

So are you saying you need to be there whenever the client decides regardless. Sorry but no client has ever paid me enough to totally own my life.

[psychocandy]

Total and absolute tosh.

I would concur with NL's summary of the OPs potential IR35 situation, above.

I meant the WFH refusal and client attitude to time off...

[LondonManc]

Being inside ir35 now does not mean you were previously. Case law suggests this.

It does sound as if they regard you as p&p, although that wouldn't always have been the case, especially if your previous working practices demonstrate your autonomy.

Correct, hence my suggestion to establish a clear transition from service provider to p&p to help protect previous contracts and reflect a significant change in working conditions. I'd also recommend OP discussing it with their accountant.