Reply to: Client wants to hire me as a permie

[LondonManc]

it was 18k for 3 months work, dont pretend you were working 40 hour weeks looking for your next contract - permies don't get 6 months off after being paid quadruple their normal sal for 12 weeks

if that was your only big gap in 15? (cant remember what you said) years then sounds pretty good

You've never had bench time then?

Summer 2012 was absolute tulip in London for getting a new gig - Olympics and Jubilee celebrations had taken the place over.

I've been contracting for six years and had a six-month stint on the bench. Fortunately I had a warchest to get me through it; MrMarkyMark clearly didn't. Until you've had "decent" bench time, you can't appreciate the risk involved in not being a permie and getting a good redundancy package.

[MrMarkyMark]

it was 18k for 3 months work, dont pretend you were working 40 hour weeks looking for your next contract - permies don't get 6 months off after being paid quadruple their normal sal for 12 weeks

As usual, you spectacularly missing the point, i.e. the risk.

I actually put a lot of time into gaining my next contract, remember, not all that 18K was mine and I had no other cash reserves at that time.
Certainly not "6 months off" .

That particular dead period was over the summer, so, not a lot of contracts around and probably my lack of experience, at the time, didn't help.

if that was your only big gap in 15?

Certainly not, do you remember the economic downturn (meltdown), yep, many contractors did not survive it.

The fact is you are new to this and this shows, you have not seen the hard times.
These are the realities, regardless of what you are currently experiencing, during this, so called, economic upturn.

Lets see where you are in 15 years or so and we'll take it from there .

[pr1]

Well, I turned over 18K, correct, thus far.
You also have to understand I relocated to London, prior to my contract starting.

I then didn't work for 6 months, so that was 18K for 9 months work.
This has been my point all along.

Does it sound so good to you now?

it was 18k for 3 months work, dont pretend you were working 40 hour weeks looking for your next contract - permies don't get 6 months off after being paid quadruple their normal sal for 12 weeks

if that was your only big gap in 15? (cant remember what you said) years then sounds pretty good

[SueEllen]

Exactly my thought. Has anyone been cought by IR35 on this forum at all? For all I know they are changing legislation with higher taxes etc because IR35 is so ineffective...

If you search on through google there are posters who had an IR35 fight with the taxman. The taxman dropped their cases.

[diseasex]

It is the working practices that IR35 seeks to differentiate, not the work itself. Not what you do, but how you and your client treat each other. Do you treat your client like a boss ? Does he treat you like staff?

Some people think that a contractor can never do what a permie could do, or anything "ongoing". For example, provide ongoing support of an application or system. But this simply isn't the case. A client could engage a contractor to look after a database while the permie DBA is pregnant, for example. The contractor would be doing precisely the same work as the permie, but on a contract basis.

There will always be grey areas. The construction of large grey areas was a central plank in the design of IR35. They haunt the environs in order to scare people off contracting like one of those ghosts in Scooby-doo. All you can do is stay away from the worst grey areas. All the government can do (since it really has no idea how you and your client treat each other, or what your working practices are) is prosecute contractors fairly randomly, losing cases, and catching the odd genuine abuser (eg permie off payroll, some job for years).

Exactly my thought. Has anyone been cought by IR35 on this forum at all? For all I know they are changing legislation with higher taxes etc because IR35 is so ineffective...
However being on 24-36 months contract and get cought on that gig seems like a nightmare...

[CloudWalker]

"Client wants to hire me as a permie "

Is like a prostitute being asked a marriage proposal.

e.g If you feel like THIS IS THE ONE, the say Yes!
If Not, Tell them they were Fantastic and Walk Away!

[MrMarkyMark]

assuming those 3 months were 12 weeks @ 5 days per week, you made your £18k on that first contract!

Well, I turned over 18K, correct, thus far.
You also have to understand I relocated to London, prior to my contract starting.

I then didn't work for 6 months, so that was 18K for 9 months work.
This has been my point all along.

Does it sound so good to you now?

[pr1]

OK, when I started out, I was 18K perm.
I then switched to a £300 PD contract, for 3 months, this was around 14 years ago, or so, now.

I was then out of work for 6 months. If I was inside IR35, I may not have had the funds to carry on.
Since then I have had contracts from 2 months in length, up to (gulp!) 36.

Back then, you didn't have the concept of the temp IR35 caught "contractor", so we didn't have such a spotlight on us.


Exactly, when IR35 initially reared its head, a lot off uncertain people either sucked it up and went umbrella, or went perm.

assuming those 3 months were 12 weeks @ 5 days per week, you made your £18k on that first contract!

[MrMarkyMark]

It only needs to be about 28 weeks for them to have made what they would have made as perm, then everything else on top is seen as a bonus

OK, when I started out, I was 18K perm.
I then switched to a £300 PD contract, for 3 months, this was around 14 years ago, or so, now.

I was then out of work for 6 months. If I was inside IR35, I may not have had the funds to carry on.
Since then I have had contracts from 2 months in length, up to (gulp!) 36.

Back then, you didn't have the concept of the temp IR35 caught "contractor", so we didn't have such a spotlight on us.

Each to their own, I say.

Exactly, when IR35 initially reared its head, a lot off uncertain people either sucked it up and went umbrella, or went perm.

[pr1]

Good points but I don't see how you can suggest 46 weeks as anywhere like normal for contract work.

Umbrella-based temping might work like that but 46 weeks is an aspirational target that allows for no slack in sickness or anything beyond a basic 20 days of holiday. I was on 28 days holiday when I was perm; throw in at least the standard 8 public holidays and that's 36 days off unpaid if you do the same via umbrella. That's without sick pay and bench time.

The other thing is that this forum certainly seems more focussed on outside of IR35 work and the posters are more those that position themselves as such.

46 weeks is what most of the calculators i've seen for things used, it's what mortgage brokers seem to use, is it really that far from reality for bog standard bum on seat contracts?

it only needs to be about 28 weeks for them to have made what they would have made as perm, then everything else on top is seen as a bonus

[cojak]

The other thing is that this forum certainly seems more focussed on outside of IR35 work and the posters are more those that position themselves as such.

Those that don't are not likely to post about it on here.

I know of one high-paying management consultant who works as if he's inside IR35 and is quite happy with the arrangement. He has the very widest range of clients that I know of, from the worst Public Sector to small private companies (who pay him well for his services).

Each to their own, I say.

[MrMarkyMark]

His line of reasoning, if his contract runs at least 6 months - he isn't going to be worse off than being a permie.

A big IF, IMO.

Also, how easy will it be to find another contract, especially given the lack of warchest etc.
I think we should see where he is in a few years, rather than 6 months, then go from there.

The thing is with this game, can you survive, down turns, change in economy etc. That is the true test of whether he has "done the right thing".

I understand short term thinking, however, it was never anything I considered when starting contracting, completely the opposite, actually.

[LondonManc]

let's picture a more short-term-gains thinking person

they've been on 15k sal all their life, they see 15k perm salary job vs £150/d contract (34.5k for 46*5 days) - you think they're gonna care about the ins and outs of IR35? they're looking at a big pay rise even if they go brolly

There's lots of HR/PA's at my clientco who would prob only be able to get about £20k salary but are on £200/d "inside ir35" contracts through umbrella (by their choice)

I see people (nluk best example) on one hand complaining that half the people on here "ANCOTBAC", that they're taking the p1sh with contracting and on the other hand telling people to run to the hills if there's a sniff of a contract being inside IR35...

lots of people on here forget the uk median wage is only about 27k - contracting (even via brolly) can be a big lifestyle change for 'lower' income people

Good points but I don't see how you can suggest 46 weeks as anywhere like normal for contract work.

Umbrella-based temping might work like that but 46 weeks is an aspirational target that allows for no slack in sickness or anything beyond a basic 20 days of holiday. I was on 28 days holiday when I was perm; throw in at least the standard 8 public holidays and that's 36 days off unpaid if you do the same via umbrella. That's without sick pay and bench time.

The other thing is that this forum certainly seems more focussed on outside of IR35 work and the posters are more those that position themselves as such.

[jbond007]

let's picture a more short-term-gains thinking person

they've been on 15k sal all their life, they see 15k perm salary job vs £150/d contract (34.5k for 46*5 days) - you think they're gonna care about the ins and outs of IR35? they're looking at a big pay rise even if they go brolly

There's lots of HR/PA's at my clientco who would prob only be able to get about £20k salary but are on £200/d "inside ir35" contracts through umbrella (by their choice)

I see people (nluk best example) on one hand complaining that half the people on here "ANCOTBAC", that they're taking the p1sh with contracting and on the other hand telling people to run to the hills if there's a sniff of a contract being inside IR35...

lots of people on here forget the uk median wage is only about 27k - contracting (even via brolly) can be a big lifestyle change for 'lower' income people

Excellent point. In fact, it could apply to medium earners as well. I know a BA who was on £40k and couldn't get any higher pay as a permie, switched to contracting on £400/day. I don't know if he is within IR35 or not, but even within IR35 he is significantly better off in terms of take-home pay than being a permie. I did refer him to this site, IPSE and to read up in general about IR35, MOO, etc but he was least bothered. He saw the pay hike and went for it.

His line of reasoning, if his contract runs at least 6 months - he isn't going to be worse off than being a permie.

[pr1]

As I said you would have to factor in (possible) lack of continued employment.

There is a maximum number of days you can work in a year as a contractor, less furlough time, if applicable.
In addition you would have to average this, over time, say over 5 years.
You may find the difference, net, may be less than you think.

let's picture a more short-term-gains thinking person

they've been on 15k sal all their life, they see 15k perm salary job vs £150/d contract (34.5k for 46*5 days) - you think they're gonna care about the ins and outs of IR35? they're looking at a big pay rise even if they go brolly

There's lots of HR/PA's at my clientco who would prob only be able to get about £20k salary but are on £200/d "inside ir35" contracts through umbrella (by their choice)

I see people (nluk best example) on one hand complaining that half the people on here "ANCOTBAC", that they're taking the p1sh with contracting and on the other hand telling people to run to the hills if there's a sniff of a contract being inside IR35...

lots of people on here forget the uk median wage is only about 27k - contracting (even via brolly) can be a big lifestyle change for 'lower' income people