Reply to: Contract without paper - IR35 exposure?

[lilelvis2000]

"No shareholders involved in this place -- its a co-operative...and I'm a member! "

this should read

"No shareholders involved in this place -- its a co-operative...and I'm an employee! "

naaaa, not an employee, but am a member...with dividends!

[lilelvis2000]

Correct. But I've never done a three day contract.

And how are the courts going to give you satisfaction if there's no paper contract? I would expect the court will take the same view that I did. If a corporate engages the services of a profession on a long term contract, they will expect there to be an audit trail. This isn't A.N.Other v DSG argueing about whether a consumer purchase is fit for use?

tim

tim , tim, tim....sigh...what ARE we gonna do with you. Never mind stick to you namby pamby ways...worrying about that all important "audit trail" (whatever that is). I'm sure you spend hours devising ways to ensure all trails lead to you.

[tim123]

So I take it you'd never work without paper...even on a 3 day "contract"? I'm quite comfortable with it. Of course if I'm wrongly paid there's always the courts.

Correct. But I've never done a three day contract.

And how are the courts going to give you satisfaction if there's no paper contract? I would expect the court will take the same view that I did. If a corporate engages the services of a profession on a long term contract, they will expect there to be an audit trail. This isn't A.N.Other v DSG argueing about whether a consumer purchase is fit for use?

tim

[MarillionFan]

"No shareholders involved in this place -- its a co-operative...and I'm a member! "

this should read

"No shareholders involved in this place -- its a co-operative...and I'm an employee! "

[lilelvis2000]

Sorry, but the manager signing the invoice is not going to be enough to satisfy the shareholders. In instances of companies wrongly paying money over to third parties, the individual payment was likely to be signed off by manager.

As to the PO answer. I agree. But for my purposes this IS the contract. It will contain the payment terms. But the first post siad that he had no documented proof of the payment terms.

tim

So I take it you'd never work without paper...even on a 3 day "contract"? I'm quite comfortable with it. Of course if I'm wrongly paid there's always the courts.

No shareholders involved in this place -- its a co-operative...and I'm a member!

[MarillionFan]

Oh of course. Just depends on who you're dealing with. I wouldn't dream of going through an agent without a contract. Direct is different.

[TheMonkey]

Nothing. You're just taping your ass up extra-carefully by using a PO/Proposal/Work order.

Describing the work in the documents is handy, especially when the scope creeps...

[MarillionFan]

I've worked without a contract at least 4 times over by contracting career. We agree a price for the work verbally, I invoice then get paid. What's so difficult about that?

[TheMonkey]

I always do a client-signed "work proposal" with cost and time estimate and file that. It's not a contract, but it covers the intention to provide a service for a cost for a period.

[tim123]

uhhhh...your client would of course have to sign off the invoice to indicate that you did do the work. I work in a company of 10,000+ and my direct client sees and signs my invoices...not some monkey in AP. Have you never heard of a cost centre?

Sorry, but the manager signing the invoice is not going to be enough to satisfy the shareholders. In instances of companies wrongly paying money over to third parties, the individual payment was likely to be signed off by manager.

As to the PO answer. I agree. But for my purposes this IS the contract. It will contain the payment terms. But the first post siad that he had no documented proof of the payment terms.

tim

[lilelvis2000]

how can you agree a rate rise with no formal paperwork?

It isn't just you that needs an audit trail for the taxman, the client needs one too. (and shareholders usually aren't too pleased if money disappears from the company for no obvious reason)

tim

Verbal agreement? Like when the plumber comes by to fix the drains...you agree to his rate before the work is done. no paper anywhere to be seen.

I'd rather get paid in cash and avoid the paperwork...wouldn't we all?

[lilelvis2000]

Invices aren't enough. I can raise an invoice to a company for milion pounds.

If they paid it without a contract in place the shareholderes are going to become very suspicious.

tim

uhhhh...your client would of course have to sign off the invoice to indicate that you did do the work. I work in a company of 10,000+ and my direct client sees and signs my invoices...not some monkey in AP. Have you never heard of a cost centre?

[Pondlife]

Invices aren't enough. I can raise an invoice to a company for milion pounds.

If they paid it without a contract in place the shareholderes are going to become very suspicious.

tim

They need to have a PO that will match your invoice. There doesn't 'have' to be a contract in place.

[tim123]

I've worked with no written contract before. - Not sure about the IR35 aspect.

Tim the audit trail is not a problem - Invoices.

Invices aren't enough. I can raise an invoice to a company for milion pounds.

If they paid it without a contract in place the shareholderes are going to become very suspicious.

tim

[VectraMan]

Yes no need for a contract: invoices/P.O.s.

People have said that they tend to look at your actual working situation more than what it says in the contract, so that might suggest you're no worse off not having a contract. Also not having a contract suggests more of a risk, which is also good from an IR35 point of view.