Reply to: Am I right to be concerned at creeping IR35-ism?

[suityou01]

I worked with a guy who did that - only days he took off were to make up for the weekends that he'd worked. Been on the project for two years doing it.

Mind you, if I'd been in his family, I'd have been encouraging him to spend every day at work too...

Sounds like

[TheFaQQer]

For reals? Awe gee so simple.

Hard to do on a 6 month rolling contract. You could go years without a holiday.

And you're off topic btw.

I worked with a guy who did that - only days he took off were to make up for the weekends that he'd worked. Been on the project for two years doing it.

Mind you, if I'd been in his family, I'd have been encouraging him to spend every day at work too...

[suityou01]

You dont know what you're talking about matey. Its easy to work 18 - 24 months without taking time off, bank hols excluded. Neither do I look to be a permi contractor accepting endless rolling extensions. Unlike some!

My view is I take 'holidays' when Im out of contract. Why turn down money in a contract when you dont earn anything when not working?

Unlike some, I was never and am not now, bothered about being out of contract for 3 or 4 months.

Re sick notes and performance reviews, none of that. Yet. But who say's Id put up with that? Not me.

Better luck next time, eh?

Yeah pretty much.

One thing to add is that of late (past 2-3 years) hiring managers have been getting more cretinous. Picking you up on only having short gigs, and failing therefore to understand what it means to be a contractor. In, do your job, contract ends.

So this fresh crop of pimply faced youths with hiring rights are a problem. And standing your ground only marks you out as the "difficult guy" while the other contractors that just cock a snook at hector and sign whatever is put in front of them, while picking up bonuses and overtime pay.

And for all the naysayers who would quickly pop in a size 10 and say that I do have a lot of short gigs, I just completed a 12 monther. And no, this is not a record.

[SueEllen]

Just not buying that not taking time off in contract is a workable solution. Where does it stop?

I've never completed a holiday request.

I go to the relevant client manager, look at the project plan then take my days of when it's appropriate. I also don't take more than 3 off with a weekend in the middle. If I want longer than my renewal is worded so that my new contract starts when I'm back from holiday. Other than that the longer time periods off that are due to other factors such as no work to do.

They also wanted sickness absence forms completed, and were talking about bringing in performance reviews.

There is something very wrong there. Are they looking to make you permanent as a reward?

Years ago I worked as a temp.

There were no holiday request forms, no absence forms and no performance reviews.

If you don't want a temporary member of staff regardless of how you have obtained them then you just get rid of them.

You may have to record your reasons so you don't get sued for discrimination but that's it.

[BolshieBastard]

Just not buying that not taking time off in contract is a workable solution. Where does it stop?

They also wanted sickness absence forms completed, and were talking about bringing in performance reviews.

Worse still they wanted everyone on AWR contracts.

I don't know about you Bolshie, but I went contracting to get away from this crap.

Perhaps you should change your username to CompliantBastard, or MaliableBastard?

You dont know what you're talking about matey. Its easy to work 18 - 24 months without taking time off, bank hols excluded. Neither do I look to be a permi contractor accepting endless rolling extensions. Unlike some!

My view is I take 'holidays' when Im out of contract. Why turn down money in a contract when you dont earn anything when not working?

Unlike some, I was never and am not now, bothered about being out of contract for 3 or 4 months.

Re sick notes and performance reviews, none of that. Yet. But who say's Id put up with that? Not me.

Better luck next time, eh?

[suityou01]

Just not buying that not taking time off in contract is a workable solution. Where does it stop?

They also wanted sickness absence forms completed, and were talking about bringing in performance reviews.

Worse still they wanted everyone on AWR contracts.

I don't know about you Bolshie, but I went contracting to get away from this crap.

Perhaps you should change your username to CompliantBastard, or MaliableBastard?

[BolshieBastard]

By way of an update, when I say topping up the pension pot, I mean cash pension pot not as in a company pension scheme. Im only looking at 4 years max so even chucking loads of contributions into a pukka pension isnt really worthwhile.

Anyway, further info from agency \ client is that you have to 'declare' your 'shift pattern' (this is IT btw not some support role) that is then formally agreed. Then if you're 10 - 20 minutes 'late' you have to give an explanation on the excel spreadsheet they expect you to complete.

If over an unspecified period, you regularly deviate from your 'shift' start time, they expect you to agree a change in your 'shift' period!

Im not now sure if this is the agency being arseholes or the client. The agency say they are being audited by the client to 'prove' contractors are on site for the minimum specified hours (7 +1 for lunch).

As regards leave, I dont normally take any during a contract so never have this 'apply for' nonsense. If I do, then I look to project deadlines and my targets then tell the client when Im off.

I can appreciate the client's position especially after they've just walked about 8 people off site for jibbing a 35 hour week but, the minutia that is now being expected firmly points to creeping D&C. If that's the case, I'll seriously have to consider what to do at renewal.

Im personally convinced you'd have to work as IR35 caught because if you didnt, its seems to be headed towards a slam dunk for hmrc.

[SussexSeagull]

I agree. My last two contracts have been at dramatically different places but in the first it was demanded everyone including contractors attended a team meeting last thing on Friday. To the best of my knowledge I was the only one to complain.

In my current one contract test managers and leads are taking a bit part in the appraisal process of the permanent staff and again I am seen as strange for not going to company road shows.

God help them if the HMRC ever come knocking.

[suityou01]

Simple - don't go on holiday while in contract.

For reals? Awe gee so simple.

Hard to do on a 6 month rolling contract. You could go years without a holiday.

And you're off topic btw.

[7specialgems]

+1 for observing creeping control.

We all know what you can let go and what is a threat.

Sounds like you'll be choosing not to renew BB and I wouldn't blame you.

[cojak]

Simple - don't go on holiday while in contract.

[unixman]

Going umbrella wouldn't change the client treating you as a permy. That's my beef, not IR35 worries/wordings.

[suityou01]

Last year I was tulipcanned from a role for refusing to fill out an annual leave request. There was nothing in my contract about it, and only mention of this necessity in the employee handbook.

I whined about it on here and was told I was overly concerned about IR35 and should have just signed the annual leave request.

That's the kind of tulip that was being spouted on here so I'm very relieved to see some common sense at last.

[mrv]

At the same time, permies talk yo you more and more like a permy. Nothing alarming but just a mindset. The client doesn't seem to realize that this is not good for them either, ie. not quite legally hygienic with employment law.

I am probably leaving soon because of it. received a contract extension 2 days ago but haven't signed yet. Wondering what to do.

If said permies aren't reading CUK they may not even be aware of the massive difference between them and you. I didn't think so too before coming here, and frankly I think some of that difference is just a play of words. If in doubt you can always go umbrella.

[SueEllen]

Hi BB, you are right to be concerned IMO.

I have experienced a similar thing here but to a far lesser extent. Nevertheless I worry about it, while other contractors seem totally unaware. It is very gradual - Client never used to expect contractors to attend department meetings, now asks them too, and has started to ask contractors to partake in "show and tell" where you make a small presentation for the sake of it. No objection but nothing could be less appropriate for a contractor. Two weeks ago I was asked to put my personal mobile number in my email sig.

At the same time, permies talk yo you more and more like a permy. Nothing alarming but just a mindset. The client doesn't seem to realize that this is not good for them either, ie. not quite legally hygienic with employment law.

I am probably leaving soon because of it. received a contract extension 2 days ago but haven't signed yet. Wondering what to do.

If you did the work then sharing your knowledge shouldn't be an issue especially if it's in your contract.

In regards to time off etc if contractors on a client site take the piss we all suffer.

Tell the client you are taking time off by taking into account project milestones, then email them as a record.