Reply to: Info for a newbie in contracting

[TheFaQQer]

Closed Topic

Removing your post means that anyone else with a similar question won't have the benefit of seeing it asked before and answered.

So, for anyone new to the thread, here's the original question in full

Hi All,

I'm 27 years old with around 5 years of C# .NET experience. I left my last role as a perm to go contracting in London. I've worked in a big company in London, most of my colleagues were contractors (90%) and I realised that I'm better than most of them and would be a shame to not go contracting.

Now, I've been looking for jobs for about a week, applied to many job ads, but no one calls me... or most of the calls that I'm getting are scams try to get info about my previous boss or other interviews that I have lined up.

I can write code in any programming language with ease, but specialised on C# .NET, ASP.NET MVC/WebAPI, JavaScript and SQL - I also do TDD and BDD and worked Agile (Scrum).

1. What are my chances of getting a contract ? Are my skills sufficient to enter the market?
2. How long should I expect to wait till I get a contract ?

Any tips on how I can enter the market?

[TheFaQQer]

Thank you for your reply.

Considering my years of experience (5) and location (London) what would you recommend as a daily rate to enter the market?

Sorry, no idea. Not my area, either technically or geographically.

[TheFaQQer]

The last reference form I had to get people to complete had boxes for the dates that I worked and then a tick box for "would you hire / work with this person again?"

It's pretty simple to give an accurate reference and say no.

[meridian]

There's the official reference that you might get as a minimum - job title, salary, period worked - which is not much more than your P60.

And there's the unofficial off-the-record, on-the-phone reference that might be given, which might not be as complimentary. If you want uninterrupted spells of work then good word of mouth references get you into doors you wouldn't know existed otherwise.

[SueEllen]

The company i got contracted for didnt even ask any references. Nor the agent... I dont think its THAT important to prevent me landing a job in the future ..
Ofc some will ask for references, some won't
and because its financial services company they are obligated to give references by law :
quote from https://www.gov.uk/work-reference
Employers must give a reference if:

- there was a written agreement to do so
- they’re in a regulated industry, eg financial services

If they give a reference it:
- must be fair and accurate - and can include details about workers’ performance and if they were sacked
- can be brief - eg job title, salary and when the worker was employed

They will give an accurate reference it will simply state something along the lines:
"There is a 2 weeks notice period in the employment contract. The employee did not give this notice when leaving."

[diseasex]

If you work in financial services that is an extremely bad idea.

They will refuse to provide you with a reference.

I know several instances where people were not provided with references due to their behaviour.

As a result it made it difficult for them to get roles both contract and permanent for years to come.

It's actually better if they write you a bad reference as least you have some legal comeback.

The company i got contracted for didnt even ask any references. Nor the agent... I dont think its THAT important to prevent me landing a job in the future ..
Ofc some will ask for references, some won't
and because its financial services company they are obligated to give references by law :
quote from https://www.gov.uk/work-reference
Employers must give a reference if:

- there was a written agreement to do so
- they’re in a regulated industry, eg financial services

If they give a reference it:
- must be fair and accurate - and can include details about workers’ performance and if they were sacked
- can be brief - eg job title, salary and when the worker was employed

[SueEllen]

So to sum up our conversation regarding my notice: ask them politely and offer overtime, and if they dont agree then ignore them and leave after 2 weeks anyway?

If you work in financial services that is an extremely bad idea.

They will refuse to provide you with a reference.

I know several instances where people were not provided with references due to their behaviour.

As a result it made it difficult for them to get roles both contract and permanent for years to come.

It's actually better if they write you a bad reference as least you have some legal comeback.

[diseasex]

No they are not advised to give good references. You will get a 'x worked here between y and z years' that's all. No one gives anything on references anymore. Not that it matters as reputation plays more of a role in what we do. If you leave on bad terms and your manager moves on and happens to be working at a place you apply to, you probably won't get invited for interview ect.

A lot of places won't even confirm dates you were there so you end up letting the agents chase other agents to get confirmation of contract dates. Which I'm sure is very entertaining for them and utterly pointless.

So to sum up our conversation regarding my notice: ask them politely and offer overtime, and if they dont agree then ignore them and leave after 2 weeks anyway?

[TheLordDave]

No they are not advised to give good references. You will get a 'x worked here between y and z years' that's all. No one gives anything on references anymore. Not that it matters as reputation plays more of a role in what we do. If you leave on bad terms and your manager moves on and happens to be working at a place you apply to, you probably won't get invited for interview ect.

A lot of places won't even confirm dates you were there so you end up letting the agents chase other agents to get confirmation of contract dates. Which I'm sure is very entertaining for them and utterly pointless.

[diseasex]

And you believed him/her? Never trust an agent on anything they say regarding anything regulatory or legal, most of them simply don't know. They're salesmen first and foremost and will tell you what you want to hear to make the sale. Whenever anyone says something like that, call their bluff and ask them which law and section they are talking about, 99 times out of 100 you won't get an answer.

It's likely that it won't affect your reference if the only reference you are expecting is a "diseasex worked here from xx.xx.xx to xx.xx.xx". Unless you have a more personal relationship with your contact in the business then that's all you can expect. If they're annoyed at you for leaving, there's no law that says they have to write good things about you, there's no law that says they need to provide you with any sort of reference at all.

I'm not naive to believe all the crap agents try to feed me with . However the guy I talked with sounded reasonable.
I worked there long enough to find that 1-2 people that will vouch for me if needed. The problem will be leaving on good terms with management, and that's the challenge for Monday, and as said i will offer overtime to complete the current project... however 2 weeks is quite short

Edit: yes its financial services.
Edit2 : so the agent was right, they are obligated to give good references otherwise they risk damages sue...

[meridian]

Info for a newbie in contracting

I had a chat with other agent regarding the notice and he said it wont affect my references if i'd left early, as reference process is regulated in some way and they'd be affraid to break some law

And you believed him/her? Never trust an agent on anything they say regarding anything regulatory or legal, most of them simply don't know. They're salesmen first and foremost and will tell you what you want to hear to make the sale. Whenever anyone says something like that, call their bluff and ask them which law and section they are talking about, 99 times out of 100 you won't get an answer.

It's likely that it won't affect your reference if the only reference you are expecting is a "diseasex worked here from xx.xx.xx to xx.xx.xx". Unless you have a more personal relationship with your contact in the business then that's all you can expect. If they're annoyed at you for leaving, there's no law that says they have to write good things about you, there's no law that says they need to provide you with any sort of reference at all.

EDIT: 2 seconds on Google, do you work in financial services?, https://www.gov.uk/work-reference

[Avalonia]

Print your CV on cardboard for a "strong CV" HTH

[diseasex]

Oh well. That gives you a leaving date of July 3rd. Good luck starting on June 15th

Yeah , crap. Worst case scenario i will try to renegotiate the start date. Apparently they were looking for a contractor for long so *maybe* they will be willing to wait a little longer.
I had a chat with other agent regarding the notice and he said it wont affect my references if i'd left early, as reference process is regulated in some way and they'd be affraid to break some law

[eek]

I'm still waiting for the written contract as they didn't deliver it on Friday and without reading it I'm not taking any action. My friend recommends this agent because he worked with him before, so that should be fine. As for 2 weeks notice, I will ask them politely and offer some overtime to deliver current project before I go, and say, I was going to hand the notice on 6th of June anyway (that's what i had planned before that offer on Friday)

Oh well. That gives you a leaving date of July 3rd. Good luck starting on June 15th

[diseasex]

No it isn't. To get a contract you:-


1) need to get past the gate keeper / agent. He needs and must trust you enough to put you through to the end client. If you are a jerk, not clear or polite you ain't getting past that point

2) you cv needs to be good enough for the end client for them to want to interview you.

Oh and it's not the first contract that is important but the second. Anyone can get a first contract when they have their permanent job to fall back on, it's harder to get the next one as the money runs out and panic sets in.

Ps have you told your current employer that you want to leave early in breach of your permanent jobs terms and conditions?

I'm still waiting for the written contract as they didn't deliver it on Friday and without reading it I'm not taking any action. My friend recommends this agent because he worked with him before, so that should be fine. As for 2 weeks notice, I will ask them politely and offer some overtime to deliver current project before I go, and say I was going to hand the notice on 6th of June anyway (that's what i had planned before that offer on Friday)