Reply to: New gig offer not quite what it seemed

[SpontaneousOrder]

When I was a permie at a boutique-like consultancy I still often had to interview (with end client) before attending a new client site. Maybe it's just this?

**edit** I see you got it sorted anyway.

[Roger Mellie]

I can understand it seeming a bit odd if you have never been in the position before but IME this is fairly common place...

The pimp doesn't really matter in this as they are just a messenger boy and they don't really know the full details so are probably as in the dark as you..

Consultancies very often like to give the end client impression that they are supplying "experts" and even Bum-on-Seat resources from their deep pool of talent/resources... that is often part of their sales pitch to get the original contract.
So they ask you to "give the impression" that you are one of their staff/permanent... or sometimes even that you are some sort of "associate" etc.
Some outright ask you to explicitly say that (some might say lie).
Some consultancies I have worked with even went so far as to supply their branded business cards, a consultancy branded PDA and email addresses etc (this was many years ago before anyone gets into IR35 etc) .

What always makes me laugh is that this model assumes that everybody at the end client is thick as tulip! As it is often not that hard to spot the "culture gaps" when a contractor doesn't quite fit in with the consultancy's culture!
I have worked at one client for one of the large sub-continent service providers who also supplied the client with a large number of both off and onshore bods for all sorts of roles. All of the other onshore bods turned up daily in large groups having commuted together from company apartments in the east end. I turned up independently and despite my Consultancy contact repeatedly introducing me as the "Consultancy Expert in XXX" not one of the end client people I dealt with for a single moment believed that story. I always got invited to the consultancy Rah! Rah! meetings but quietly sat at the back while they passed out £20 gift vouchers for "Star of the Week" and other bull!
It was also quite funny as the consultancy categorisation of the end client was officially "Cash Cow". I always wondered if this was a misinterpretation of the idiom or just a very good and honest use of it!

Thanks for the insight, very much appreciated.

All sorted now, just getting my ducks in a row with regards to the contract review.

Thanks to all of you for your help and advice.

[Dactylion]

I can understand it seeming a bit odd if you have never been in the position before but IME this is fairly common place...

The pimp doesn't really matter in this as they are just a messenger boy and they don't really know the full details so are probably as in the dark as you..

Consultancies very often like to give the end client impression that they are supplying "experts" and even Bum-on-Seat resources from their deep pool of talent/resources... that is often part of their sales pitch to get the original contract.
So they ask you to "give the impression" that you are one of their staff/permanent... or sometimes even that you are some sort of "associate" etc.
Some outright ask you to explicitly say that (some might say lie).
Some consultancies I have worked with even went so far as to supply their branded business cards, a consultancy branded PDA and email addresses etc (this was many years ago before anyone gets into IR35 etc) .

What always makes me laugh is that this model assumes that everybody at the end client is thick as tulip! As it is often not that hard to spot the "culture gaps" when a contractor doesn't quite fit in with the consultancy's culture!
I have worked at one client for one of the large sub-continent service providers who also supplied the client with a large number of both off and onshore bods for all sorts of roles. All of the other onshore bods turned up daily in large groups having commuted together from company apartments in the east end. I turned up independently and despite my Consultancy contact repeatedly introducing me as the "Consultancy Expert in XXX" not one of the end client people I dealt with for a single moment believed that story. I always got invited to the consultancy Rah! Rah! meetings but quietly sat at the back while they passed out £20 gift vouchers for "Star of the Week" and other bull!
It was also quite funny as the consultancy categorisation of the end client was officially "Cash Cow". I always wondered if this was a misinterpretation of the idiom or just a very good and honest use of it!

[Roger Mellie]

It's quote normal to be interviewed by the end client's client, have done it myself a few times. Only once I was asked not to bring to the table myself I'm a contractor, but if they would ask, just to tell the truth. In all other cases they knew in advance I'm a contractor.

Thanks for that. Yes, I do accept that but just got a little concerned because when the guy at the agency called me yesterday he was all "well done, you got the contract. They're looking to get you in on Monday". His language today was very different: "ok the final part of the process is an in-depth interview....err...sorry I mean discussion with the client's customer." followed by cloak and dagger stuff about not to mention I'm a contractor. He said I'd be speaking with one of the permie guys, but turned out to be a female IT Director.

The info was 2nd hand, I should have insisted on speaking to the Consultancy firm, just to get the details from the horses mouth.

[Roger Mellie]

Forget what NLUK is going to say, but please make a few things clear here:

As I understand, the entities are you(Contractor), Agency, Consultancy, End Client. The End Client is consultancy's client. You are entering into a contract with the agency to work for the Consultancy. And you are at the Consultancy's grace on who you will be working for (the End client in this case). The agent tells you to hide the fact that you are a contractor and instead make it appear like a permie at the Consultancy.

Is this the story?

If it is, I then have a suspicion on the relationship between the Client and the Consultancy and I'd presume the client was bitten by the previous contractor supplied by the Consultancy and want to be tulip clear about who will work.

That said, Agency gets paid by the Consultancy and not the end client. What is the status of your Opt-out?

If the end client says NO, what will happen to the contract between you and the agent?

Opt-in as always, even though the Opt in/out brief discussion didn't come up until after I had been introduced to the client. Also told them that start dates are subject to a contract review. However, nothing has been given to me in writing as yet.

As an update, I had a brief chat with the IT Director at the end client. She seemed more concerned with whether or not I was an individual contractor or someone who operates my own consultancy. Then a couple of questions on past gig durations, which have been 3, 6 and 12+ months for various clients at a time. Once that was out the way, she seemed happy and talked to me about potential start dates.

Obviously means nowt until I have something in writing. But you chaps were right in that it seemed to be more a person check than an interview.

[Eirikur]

It's quote normal to be interviewed by the end client's client, have done it myself a few times. Only once I was asked not to bring to the table myself I'm a contractor, but if they would ask, just to tell the truth. In all other cases they knew in advance I'm a contractor.

[FatLazyContractor]

As for the interview I doubt many companies would allow any consultancy to dictate who came in to do some particular roles.

^This absolutely !

[eek]

I guess the client has made some noise about not hiring another contractor, either explicitly or suggested. From their point of view it should not matter, as anyone that comes in is under the badge of the supplying company. But if they've had a bad experience and the supplier has used the fact the previous guy was a contractor then they've made a rod for their own back.
It will become obvious anyway as no matter how good a contractor you are there's always an adjustment period as you learn the company's terminology, methods and names!

Don't assume it has anything to do with being a contractor. The end client is probably annoyed that someone who knew the system left they won't care if that person was a permanent or contractor belonging to the consultancy.

As for the interview I doubt many companies would allow any consultancy to dictate who came in to do some particular roles.

[FatLazyContractor]

It will become obvious anyway as no matter how good a contractor you are, it depends to a good extent on how well you maintain and manage your relationship with the client !

FTFY

[gigahoe]

I guess the client has made some noise about not hiring another contractor, either explicitly or suggested. From their point of view it should not matter, as anyone that comes in is under the badge of the supplying company. But if they've had a bad experience and the supplier has used the fact the previous guy was a contractor then they've made a rod for their own back.
It will become obvious anyway as no matter how good a contractor you are there's always an adjustment period as you learn the company's terminology, methods and names!

[FatLazyContractor]

Forget what NLUK is going to say, but please make a few things clear here:

As I understand, the entities are you(Contractor), Agency, Consultancy, End Client. The End Client is consultancy's client. You are entering into a contract with the agency to work for the Consultancy. And you are at the Consultancy's grace on who you will be working for (the End client in this case). The agent tells you to hide the fact that you are a contractor and instead make it appear like a permie at the Consultancy.

Is this the story?

If it is, I then have a suspicion on the relationship between the Client and the Consultancy and I'd presume the client was bitten by the previous contractor supplied by the Consultancy and want to be tulip clear about who will work.

That said, Agency gets paid by the Consultancy and not the end client. What is the status of your Opt-out?

If the end client says NO, what will happen to the contract between you and the agent?

[JRCT]

I think that seems perfectly reasonable. Doesn't happen very often, but if you're going to be working closely with this guy, then maybe he wants someone that he can get along with and that fits into the culture of the place - that's important to some organisations - rather than test your technical skills or experience.

What I do find bizarre is the agent asking you not to reveal yourself. Surely this guy has requested that you phone him, therefore he knows who you are and why you're phoning. How can he ask you any questions if he doesn't know who you are? What are you going to pretend to be, an insurance salesman?

[gigahoe]

He used quotes and everything!

Yep, that's my pathetic preemptive defense!

[Roger Mellie]

You've got no alternative really, other than declining and walking away. I guess you're right in that the people on site are wary about someone new coming in when the last person left mid project. Perhaps they weren't working out thus the client wanting to vet the people.

I'm in a similar position, in that I contract to an outsourcing company and am then on site with one of their clients. So although the outsourcing company are the people that pay my invoices and therefore are the ones I need to keep on side, the reality is I have two 'bosses'.

Thanks, yes that does make perfect sense. Haven't received a time as yet - so sitting here biting my nails and wondering what's going on

[dty]

NLUK will be along in a minute to chastise you

He used quotes and everything!