Reply to: First contract - substitution

[sal]

Simply tell them it needs to change. It isn't negotiation.

Oh, but it is, and the Agency is holding all the trumps. It might come as a bit of a surprise to you but generally (unless it's a niche skill) there are more contractors and permies wannabe contractors than roles at any given time.

And can you enlighten us why "it needs to change"? It's a good thing if you can change it, but if the rest of the contract and the working practices are outside of IR35 there is definitely no "need" to change it.

[Untouchable1]

Simply tell them it needs to change. It isn't negotiation.

[Andy Hallett]

All good advice above getting the contract checked etc. given that the contract has this clause as standard and they have removed it, have you questioned why they have removed it in regard of your role?

[BolshieBastard]

Dont try and negotiate over one clause yourself then get it professionally reviewed (I always advise B&C rather than anyone else. Ive always had excellent service from them).

You'll likely have a tough job getting anywhere with the HR and likely hack them off if they did agree to it then find there was yet more negotiating to be done with someone like B&C.

[TheFaQQer]

Thanks, I didn't realise they could negotiate on my behalf. Sounds good, just looking them up now.

Qdos will do the negotiating for you as well.

[sal]

As others have said, get the contract professionally reviewed. On it's own not having a the right of substitution doesn't mean you are inside IR35.

One thing that everyone missed so far is that this is your first contract, before you start kick in a fuss with the Agency/Client you need to decide how much do you need this contract. And if it's worthwhile to accept the IR35 risk to but your foot through the door of contracting.

[MyUserName]

But that's not true..

TBH I don't care it it is true! Agents routinely lie, why shouldn't I return the favour if it gets me where I want to be. I have used it before (admittedly it was true when I said it but they didn't know that).

And even if you could pull it off there is going to be a problem with the contract not matching working conditions.

Hmmm, yeah maybe. Although in my experience most companies in practice would not actually allow a sub regardless of the contract but having jumped through this hoop is not a good start.

[ORVBA]

Speak to Baur and Cottrell about contract checks. They will do the negotiations on your behalf

It is important but it's not the only Clause. As long as the D&C and MoO is covered you should be OK. Just make sure B&C or maybe QDOS review the rest of the contract for you...

Thanks, I didn't realise they could negotiate on my behalf. Sounds good, just looking them up now.

[ORVBA]

Thanks all

I literally just got the contract in my hands and read it myself before anything else and saw the clausebeing removed on the signature page which prompted my post as it seemed a obvious issue for IR35...following what I've read here.

My question was as a first timer, is how to approach the client about changes. There may well be more after a professional review should I decide to have one, that wasn't my question but yes I was seriously considering it regardless.

[Batcher]

Damn! Was I too subtle?

Not for me, I got it right away but whinestrone might have read the thread and you knpw how thick he is

[northernladuk]

Speak to Baur and Cottrell about contract checks. They will do the negotiations on your behalf

It is important but it's not the only Clause. As long as the D&C and MoO is covered you should be OK. Just make sure B&C or maybe QDOS review the rest of the contract for you...

[stek]

He/she said "following the brilliant advice I've found on websites such as this" but didn't mean he/she had actually followed the brilliant advice and had their contract reviewed.

Damn! Was I too subtle?

[northernladuk]

Tell them that it is a condition of your insurance that that clause must be present.

But that's not true.. And even if you could pull it off there is going to be a problem with the contract not matching working conditions.

[Batcher]

Who checked the contract? Qdos?

He/she said "following the brilliant advice I've found on websites such as this" but didn't mean he/she had actually followed the brilliant advice and had their contract reviewed.

[MyUserName]

Hello,

I've always been a permy, over 18years, but decided to make the jump into contracting. Resigned 3 weeks ago after securing my first contract for 6 months. So, due to start next week and the final contract came through for this first assignment today. On the signature page, under special conditions, they have removed the clause for substitution, saying "Clause XX does not apply". I decided to operate through a ltd company and am quite comfortable with the fact I should be outside IR35, following the brilliant advice I've found on websites such as this I realise that this is a very important clause in the contract. Just wondering how to approach this now, should I just ask for the special condition to be removed, or explain myself in any way? To further complicate, the contract isn't with the agency that found me the assignment, it is with the clients outsourced HR provider. If it was the agency I would have been much more comfortable negotiating. Any advice would be much appreciated. Thank you

Tell them that it is a condition of your insurance that that clause must be present.