Reply to: HardAss client manager - and IR unfriendly too

[psychocandy]

You, sir, are really & truly NCOTBAC in the true sense of the word.

Why? Because of the work I do?

[original PM]

Not true. Depends what you do.

In my case, most of the stuff is to backfill for permies who are moved to project work. Not the most IR35 frendly I know.

Why can the work you are backing filling for the permies not be done at home?

In this day and age with the exception of some specific roles where you have to be at a certain place at a certain time - such as a service or helpdesk role there is no reason to have to be in a specific location to get the job done.

But anyway horses for courses and all that!

[FatLazyContractor]

Not true. Depends what you do.

In my case, most of the stuff is to backfill for permies who are moved to project work. Not the most IR35 frendly I know.

You, sir, are really & truly NCOTBAC in the true sense of the word.

[psychocandy]

You normally take on a contractor to achieve a series of set tasks/goals.

Not to come in every day to 'work'.

As long as they hit the milestones and deliverables it really does not matter how, where and when they do it.

And in fact when you say you do not think WFH is 'work' actually just highlights you as the sort of person who cannot manage their own time and motivate themselves.

Not true. Depends what you do.

In my case, most of the stuff is to backfill for permies who are moved to project work. Not the most IR35 frendly I know.

[AnthonyQuinn]

That attitude might work with low level n00bs, but any in-demand contractor is going to call your bluff with that childish attitude; I dare say you specialised in n00bs or didn't last long as a hiring manager

worked for me till i became a contractor myself. Yes if someone is in high enough demand, he / she should just find another gig. Why whinge about the hardass manager??

[ceebeepps]

Perhaps with a few more contracting years on my back I may think differently(!), but my client is precisely that; my client. I'm providing a quality service in a niche market where everyone knows everyone and charging a premium for it so I like to be visible and making a difference and more importantly demonstrating my value as this gets me more work. I don't expect an easy gig, wfh or flexibility.

[northernladuk]

I don't think it's as black and white as that. Yes most of it might well be down to poor client attitudes but engagement with stakeholders can be a factor and so can the client being burned in the past plus others.

My current gig works much better being on site. I'd rather not WFH as I can get more done more efficiently on site. Client is well aware if that.

I also think WFH should be based on trust so at very least that has to be gained before demanding freedom to do what you want. I know more than enough contractors I wouldn't let out of eyesight let alone WFH.

I don't personally think it's fair to blame a client just because they don't have a carte blanche policy on home working.

[original PM]

Well that's a fair point but what it actually means is lazy management.

Which is probably one of the most damaging problems a company can have.

Management is not about taking a register but so much more than that.

[Willapp]

You normally take on a contractor to achieve a series of set tasks/goals.

Not to come in every day to 'work'.

As long as they hit the milestones and deliverables it really does not matter how, where and when they do it.

And in fact when you say you do not think WFH is 'work' actually just highlights you as the sort of person who cannot manage their own time and motivate themselves.

I think the problem, certainly in the software development field, is that in larger teams and working in an "agile" environment it can be just as easy to contribute very little while looking "busy" as it is to achieve a lot and appear to have time on your hands. Too often those in charge of resource work to the lowest common denominator which is basically time spent visibly sat at the computer. Let people WFH and you can no longer "see" their effort and ergo they must be sat in front of the TV all day.

It's an attitude that bothers me greatly, but I suspect that for every true contractor who sees WFH as the valuable "benefit" that it is - and consequently focuses on delivery of their objectives - there will be 2 or 3 bob contractors who would achieve little whether in the office or not, but at least can "appear" busy sitting at their desk and keeping people happy by doing the coffee round five times a day.

I am lucky that my current client is fairly reasonable when it comes to WFH for contractors and permies, and some permies even have "5 days in 4" deals. What's frustrating is that many of them are in the latter category above and deliver very little whether they're sat in the office or not!

[original PM]

whats wrong with you. When i was hiring manager I wouldnt let the contractor WFH either. I dont think WFH is 'work' and when I am the client you effing do as I say or find another client. And why on earth should he care about your IR35? Do you care about his tax compliance for example?? dont like the contract?? find another.

You normally take on a contractor to achieve a series of set tasks/goals.

Not to come in every day to 'work'.

As long as they hit the milestones and deliverables it really does not matter how, where and when they do it.

And in fact when you say you do not think WFH is 'work' actually just highlights you as the sort of person who cannot manage their own time and motivate themselves.

[SussexSeagull]

From what I am seeing WFH is becoming less and less fashionable so that is something we may all have to get used to. That said if you are being paid several hundreds of pounds a day it really isn't that much of a hardship (unless they are backtracking having agreed to it before you started).

Would have thought it fairly sensible to be there when everyone else is unless it involves someone having a go at you for arriving at 0902. In terms of extra hours this has been done to death but basically manage the situation on a client by client basis.

[jamesbrown]

whats wrong with you. When i was hiring manager I wouldnt let the contractor WFH either. I dont think WFH is 'work' and when I am the client you effing do as I say or find another client. And why on earth should he care about your IR35? Do you care about his tax compliance for example?? dont like the contract?? find another.

That attitude might work with low level n00bs, but any in-demand contractor is going to call your bluff with that childish attitude; I dare say you specialised in n00bs or didn't last long as a hiring manager

[jmo21]

Actually, the contract I have specifically states to the client "You shall not attempt to exert control... etc... over the worker", so no, if you are the client I don't do as you effing say.

Why are you paying the high rate for a skilled resource when you obviously appear to want a sweatshop worker to grind out what you want. It sounds more like you're looking for someone on an FTC, or more likely a temp.

A lot of places are exactly like that though. The contractor for them IS just another "bod" for them to boss around just like the permies.

It is up to us to manage it, but quite rightly, they aren't interested in our IR35 status.

And if it's really bad, you have a decision to make.

[jamesbrown]

Are you psychocandy?

Get out of my head.

[Ticktock]

whats wrong with you. When i was hiring manager I wouldnt let the contractor WFH either. I dont think WFH is 'work' and when I am the client you effing do as I say or find another client. And why on earth should he care about your IR35? Do you care about his tax compliance for example?? dont like the contract?? find another.

Actually, the contract I have specifically states to the client "You shall not attempt to exert control... etc... over the worker", so no, if you are the client I don't do as you effing say.

Why are you paying the high rate for a skilled resource when you obviously appear to want a sweatshop worker to grind out what you want. It sounds more like you're looking for someone on an FTC, or more likely a temp.