Reply to: Accounts submitted late.. Big fine

[SueEllen]

Two things that annoyed me -

- They told me the accounts were ready on around the 15th April, so within one month, but it seems they were not done at all at that point (judging from the logins to my web-based bookkeeping that I've only just discovered) - I then assumed they were being processed and not that it would take until May to submit them, despite my chasing all through April met with stony silence or "just ready to submit"

- They told me that my accounts were definitely in on time last year and even "sorted out" Companies House's supposed "error" when they fined the company last year; but now having spoken to them, Companies House maintain that the accounts were definitely late last year, as a result the fine has doubled.

So, I would have expected a month late and £150 fine. Not two months late and £750 fine..

1. Put in a written complaint with why you gave them enough time to do the accounts, and ask them to contact you within 7 days giving them all your telephone numbers plus inform them that you have answering machines on said telephones*. Indicate in the letter you will take further action if you don't hear from them. Send letter by email and post stating that you have done so on both copies. (Or email and fax, or post and fax - you get the picture.)

2. Put in a complaint to their professional body if you don't get any response exactly after the 7 days.

3. Change accountants and get them to state in an email how far in advance they require you to complete books to do your end of year.

*A trick lots of companies use is to ring you up and put the phone down immediately when you pick up. They then claim they can't contact you. They don't do this if you state you have an answering machine.

[oversteer]

Two things that annoyed me -

- They told me the accounts were ready on around the 15th April, so within one month, but it seems they were not done at all at that point (judging from the logins to my web-based bookkeeping that I've only just discovered) - I then assumed they were being processed and not that it would take until May to submit them, despite my chasing all through April met with stony silence or "just ready to submit"

- They told me that my accounts were definitely in on time last year and even "sorted out" Companies House's supposed "error" when they fined the company last year; but now having spoken to them, Companies House maintain that the accounts were definitely late last year, as a result the fine has doubled.

So, I would have expected a month late and £150 fine. Not two months late and £750 fine..

[Alan @ BroomeAffinity]

the fine is the same.

except it isn't. It increases after a month.

[Alan @ BroomeAffinity]

Yes, its the director's responsiblity to get the accounts filed and the OP had obviously tw@tted about a bit for the previous eight months or he would have had the accounts to the accountant long before the deadline date but 3 weeks is do-able. 3 hours is do-able if I'm being honest. 7 weeks is blatant nonsense and unless there is something underlying, completely unacceptable. However, if you don't have an SLA or an engagement letter you can pretty much forget about getting any recompense. I don't think that the Institute would see 7 weeks as too long to wait. I'd chalk it up to experience and move on. Find an accountant who has deadlines written into their SLA and try get your books in a bit sooner.

[philip@wellwoodhoyle]

The OP didn't say the accountants were on a monthly retainer, hasn't said how often (if at all) the accountant reminded him that his "books" were needed, etc. It is quite possible/common that there was no ongoing relationship except for him turning up once a year with his file to get the accounts prepared for which a fee invoice is raised.

I would agree, though, that IF there was a monthly package/retainer in place, and IF there was an ongoing relationship throughout the year, then it's a bit remiss of the accountant not to chase the client far sooner IF they didn't. But it's all IFS and BUTS isn't it as the OP hasn't really put much flesh on the bones about the contract or working relationship or how often (if at all) he was reminded etc etc.

As for lack of communication, I'd say it was obvious the accounts hadn't been filed on time because the OP obviously didn't get them for his approval/signature, so he knew the deadline had been missed.

No, they didn't "do them" five weeks after the deadline - they were "filed" five weeks after the deadline, meaning that they had been sent to the client for approval, sent back to the accountant after approval, and then sent to Co House, within five weeks of the deadline, which is more likely meaning that they'd been "done" a week or two earlier.

At the end of the day, both sides are at fault. OP is at fault for leaving it to the last minute and assuming the accountant would find time to do it, and the accountant is at fault for not telling client that the deadline wasn't going to be met. But, so what? Why is it any better for the client to know the deadline isn't going to be met because he could do nothing about it. He wouldn't have got another accountant to do it so quickly either bearing in mind getting changeover info, registering with HMRC etc - at the end of the day, 3 weeks is far too late, and once that's accepted, it matters little whether they're filed a week late, or five weeks late - the fine is the same.

[RichardCranium]

The last couple of times I've wanted some decoration done

But is your decorator on a monthly retainer? And are you on your decorator's mailing list? And does your decorating have to be done by a well-documented date? And did the decorator do your house this time last year?

That is not a valid metaphor. (Or simile. Whichever.)

Yes, ultimately, it is the Directors' responsibility to gets the accounts submitted. Appointing a professional accountancy is a valid way of discharging those duties.

Instead of the accountant taking the monthly direct debit and keeping schtum, they could have:
- emailed "We're not going to get these done on time";
- emailed "We can do this this year, but in future we want them x weeks earlier";
- said "As per out mailshot y months ago, since you did not give us z weeks notice, we are surcharging you £m to pay for the overtime / weekend work";
- just got on with it.

Taking the money, taking the work and then doing nothing about it nor not communicating with the client is not the behaviour of a professional.

All they had to do was pick up the phone and say "And WTF do you expect us to do with these now?" and they had three weeks to do it, but they never bothered.

I think the OP is entitled to be upset.

And since they finally did them 5 weeks after the deadline, just how many other clients' accounts were submitted late?

[MarillionFan]

The last couple of times I've wanted some decoration done, the 2/3 decorators I've asked to quote have given approx times to start of between 4-8 weeks. Wanted the boiler replacing last November and had to wait 6 weeks before any heating engineers could schedule it in. Same with a new gas fire/surround - both local shops were looking at 4 weeks before they could fit it. You have to accept that no service business has staff just sat there waiting to do work the moment the client needs it. Workload has to be planned at least a couple of weeks in advance which inevitably increases at busy times of the year when demand is higher. I am sure that your accountant would have done your accounts within 3 weeks had they a suitable clerk sat waiting doing nothing who could start on yours straight away, but it is far more likely they were all in the middle of other work that week, with the following week or two (at least) already pencilled in with promises made for other clients with deadlines etc - remember it's not just annual accounts/tax returns, there are also VAT returns every quarter, payrolls every month, etc. By taking a clerk off other planned work to do yours, the firm could well have ended up making other clients late and them incurring late filing penalties or at the very least annoying clients by breaking promises. It is likely that when your books arrived, the manager/partner realised that however quickly they allocated it to the next available clerk, it wouldn't get finalised and submitted by the deadline (bearing in mind review staff availability, time to clear queries, postage times for approval & submission, etc, so there was no point in accelerating it as being a day late is as bad as being 4 weeks late. Your only course of complaint would be had they promised to meet the deadline but failed to meet their promise. Otherwise it's not a disciplinary or complaining matter - expecting 3 week turnaround is simply not realistic for any service provider where a timetable has not been agreed/promised in advance. Put it down to experience and make a mental note to do your bit quicker next year - after all, you have 9 months from the year end, so leaving it to 8 months and 1 week and expected your accountant to jump through hoops in the last 3 weeks is a tad unrealistic.

Punctuate and paragraphs man!

[philip@wellwoodhoyle]

I remain philosophical about the 3 weeks. Yes, I could have got them in earlier. However, 7 weeks takes the mickey, IMO

The last couple of times I've wanted some decoration done, the 2/3 decorators I've asked to quote have given approx times to start of between 4-8 weeks. Wanted the boiler replacing last November and had to wait 6 weeks before any heating engineers could schedule it in. Same with a new gas fire/surround - both local shops were looking at 4 weeks before they could fit it. You have to accept that no service business has staff just sat there waiting to do work the moment the client needs it. Workload has to be planned at least a couple of weeks in advance which inevitably increases at busy times of the year when demand is higher. I am sure that your accountant would have done your accounts within 3 weeks had they a suitable clerk sat waiting doing nothing who could start on yours straight away, but it is far more likely they were all in the middle of other work that week, with the following week or two (at least) already pencilled in with promises made for other clients with deadlines etc - remember it's not just annual accounts/tax returns, there are also VAT returns every quarter, payrolls every month, etc. By taking a clerk off other planned work to do yours, the firm could well have ended up making other clients late and them incurring late filing penalties or at the very least annoying clients by breaking promises. It is likely that when your books arrived, the manager/partner realised that however quickly they allocated it to the next available clerk, it wouldn't get finalised and submitted by the deadline (bearing in mind review staff availability, time to clear queries, postage times for approval & submission, etc, so there was no point in accelerating it as being a day late is as bad as being 4 weeks late. Your only course of complaint would be had they promised to meet the deadline but failed to meet their promise. Otherwise it's not a disciplinary or complaining matter - expecting 3 week turnaround is simply not realistic for any service provider where a timetable has not been agreed/promised in advance. Put it down to experience and make a mental note to do your bit quicker next year - after all, you have 9 months from the year end, so leaving it to 8 months and 1 week and expected your accountant to jump through hoops in the last 3 weeks is a tad unrealistic.

[SueEllen]

I remain philosophical about the 3 weeks. Yes, I could have got them in earlier.

However, 7 weeks takes the mickey, IMO

Do you always give your accounts to your accounts a month before and they do them?

[oversteer]

I remain philosophical about the 3 weeks. Yes, I could have got them in earlier.

However, 7 weeks takes the mickey, IMO

[SueEllen]

Complain to the accountant's professional body.

No point complaining if the accountant doesn't even know he's been ringing.

Before getting their professional body involved it's best to prove that you have tried to get in touch with them.

Send them a first class record sign-for letter giving 7 days from the date of the letter for them to phone you and discuss the issues as for some reason you haven't been able to get through to the phone when ringing them for the past 2 weeks. Put phone numbers in the letter that have answering services i.e. voicemail and state in the letter that these phone numbers have answering services.

I've done this in the past before I've complaint to regulators about companies who claim to do call backs as lots of companies say they can't get in touch with you. If you point out they you have answering services and they don't leave a message then it's them who are unreasonable.

Oh and if you have in previous years given the accountant your books 3 months or more before they have to submit your accounts I won't bother complaining. I would pay the fine, find another accountant and agree with them before hand when books have to be submitted.

[configman]

My accountant was given books three weeks before the deadline. Tight, but I didnt think unreasonable given that my accounts are invoices only and all neatly arranged in proper books and they just put them into vt accounts or similar.

Despite my best efforts to chase, it took them two months to submit my accounts.

As they were late last year I now have a £750 fine from companies house...

Any advice in how to reduce this fine would be appreciated! Accountancy no longer return my emails.

Am I unreasonable in expecting accounts done in 3 or even 7 weeks?

It takes me only 2 hours to complete end of year accounts as my books are very up to date. I tend to submit accounts 6 months early giving ample time for error and correction. Your accountant will have other clients so cannot produce them as fast as someone doing their own and there will be staff holidays etc to factor in for short notice. 3 weeks notice is rather short when using another business unless they state in the contract that their turnaround is shorter. Looking at your accounts turnaround had you submitted your books on time the accounts will have reached Companies House long before due.

[RichardCranium]

Complain to the accountant's professional body.

I got fined by Companies House when in exactly your position a few years ago: the accountants sat on the paperwork for two months for no apparent reason, despite me chasing regularly.

I got half the annual fees back from the accountancy.



(It's the accountancy where the Police have been regular visitors.)

[oversteer]

I'd rather not name at this stage

The contract doesn't really say anything, other than they'll take "reasonable care" and that the directors of the Ltd co are responsible with compliance to all laws etc ..

I think Co House have made a mistake, as my accounts weren't late last year, AFAIK ..

[DaveB]

My accountant was given books three weeks before the deadline. Tight, but I didnt think unreasonable given that my accounts are invoices only and all neatly arranged in proper books and they just put them into vt accounts or similar.

Despite my best efforts to chase, it took them two months to submit my accounts.

As they were late last year I now have a £750 fine from companies house...

Any advice in how to reduce this fine would be appreciated! Accountancy no longer return my emails.

Am I unreasonable in expecting accounts done in 3 or even 7 weeks?

What did your agreement with them say with regard to submission of accounts from yout to them for preparation?

Name and Shame?