Reply to: daft question re notice

[Wanderer]

many thanks to all who replied, have stuck to guns and agency & client backed off immediately! Think they thought they could bluff another 4 weeks out of me (which to be honest they really don't need - something of a power play possibly or insecurity on their side).

Wouldn't it be funny if:

You: OK, I'll work the extra 4 weeks as you insist I'm contracted to do.
Agency: OK, good boy. You have to stick to your binding contract or else there will be trouble.
Client: Actually, we don't have any more budget so we are terminating the contract immediately.
You: OK, Agency now I want to be paid for the 4 weeks.
Agency: Nah, we don't have to stick to the contract.
You:

[slogger]

This is absolutely correct. Agencies apply this rule so why shouldn't we ?

many thanks to all who replied, have stuck to guns and agency & client backed off immediately! Think they thought they could bluff another 4 weeks out of me (which to be honest they really don't need - something of a power play possibly or insecurity on their side).

Well, there's your get out then. It seems clear to me that their intention was that the offer was subject to the signing of a written contract and until the paperwork is signed they do not intend for the contract to be formed.

I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that a contract needs offer, acceptance and consideration. In this case there is definitely an "offer" of a contract with contains a "consideration" for both parties, but the clear intent is that there shall be no "acceptance" until the contract is signed by both parties. Since it hasn't been signed, no contract has been formed.

This is absolutely correct. Agencies apply this rule so why shouldn't we ?

[Wanderer]

told I would receive a written contract I havent (original extension a while back stated that 'agreement shall become valid only upon signature and receipt of signed copies by both parties' - I assume this would mean legally that agency doesnt want a contract unless paperwork signed) - even emailing agency and asking for a pdf of contract I could sign I didnt receive it - all this and uncertainty around client co redundancies/layoffs/contractor rate cuts made me look elsewhere - have obtained another contract - now agency asking for 4 weeks notice - which takes me beyond end of contract with no paperwork etc...

Well, there's your get out then. It seems clear to me that their intention was that the offer was subject to the signing of a written contract and until the paperwork is signed they do not intend for the contract to be formed.

I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that a contract needs offer, acceptance and consideration. In this case there is definitely an "offer" of a contract with contains a "consideration" for both parties, but the clear intent is that there shall be no "acceptance" until the contract is signed by both parties. Since it hasn't been signed, no contract has been formed.

[Sausage Surprise]

The agent is definitely trying to yank your chain. Tell them the notice period does not apply as you are already in it.

This is correct.

blimey - not as simple as I thought! More complex as was told a permanent offer would be forthcoming - wasnt - so terms did change, also several weeks later after being told I would receive a written contract I havent (original extension a while back stated that 'agreement shall become valid only upon signature and receipt of signed copies by both parties' - I assume this would mean legally that agency doesnt want a contract unless paperwork signed) - even emailing agency and asking for a pdf of contract I could sign I didnt receive it - all this and uncertainty around client co redundancies/layoffs/contractor rate cuts made me look elsewhere - have obtained another contract - now agency asking for 4 weeks notice - which takes me beyond end of contract with no paperwork etc...

The agent is definitely trying to yank your chain. Tell them the notice period does not apply as you are already in it.

[CheeseSlice]

now agency asking for 4 weeks notice - which takes me beyond end of contract with no paperwork etc...

A notice period is only useful when you terminate so that you leave before the end of a contract. Once you're into the territory that the notice period is longer than the time left on the contract, the notice period is useless. Agent is lying.

[CheeseSlice]

Hi,

Daft question - I think I know the answer (99.9999% sure anyway!!) - currently in contract via ltd company, contract ends at end of week - I've been sent a renewal but haven't signed it, however said verbally I'd renew ... am I bound by this?

Are you via an agency? Did you verbally tell the agent that you would renew?
What words did you use?

When a renewal is discussed with me over the phone I usually say something like "thats good news", rather than outright acceptance. Then I wait for the paperwork.

[slogger]

blimey - not as simple as I thought! More complex as was told a permanent offer would be forthcoming - wasnt - so terms did change, also several weeks later after being told I would receive a written contract I havent (original extension a while back stated that 'agreement shall become valid only upon signature and receipt of signed copies by both parties' - I assume this would mean legally that agency doesnt want a contract unless paperwork signed) - even emailing agency and asking for a pdf of contract I could sign I didnt receive it - all this and uncertainty around client co redundancies/layoffs/contractor rate cuts made me look elsewhere - have obtained another contract - now agency asking for 4 weeks notice - which takes me beyond end of contract with no paperwork etc...

[Wanderer]

Actually, no. A verbal commitment is not necessarily a binding contract - it all depends on what was said, to whom and the 'consideration' that was exchanged to make it binding.

It is just an expression to enter into a contract and one can withdraw that commitment if so desired if specific knowledge comes to pass that could make the contract null and void or subject to frustration at a later time.

You are perfectly entitled as a Ltd Co to elect not to provide services and you are not obligated to supply those services.

It sounds to me like slogger entered into a verbal contract by accepting the client's offer of a contract extension. A consideration only has to be offered by both sides (not actually exchanged) to form a binding contract.

A verbal contract is binding on both parties. However, it is difficult to prove that the written version of a verbal contract matches what was agreed verbally so there is room to wriggle out of it that way. It's bad form though, so you shouldn't do it unless you are really stuck.

It's a lot more difficult to wriggle out of a verbal contract when the contract is a verbal agreement to an extension of an existing written contract. Imagine the client said "can you do another 3 months, same terms etc", the worker says "yes" then a contract extension is presented in writing confirming the details. Neither party can easily argue that the terms of the contract aren't acceptable because they were already doing business under these terms and nothing in the discussion implied that these terms would change.

Of course, if there are any changes in the contract (and there is no suggestion that there are any) then you can walk away saying that the verbal agreement has been broken as there was no mention of a change to the existing contract terms.

Finally, as has been said elsewhere on CUK, whenever you accept a contract offer - always say 'offer accepted subject to contract' which means that from your point of view its not binding until the contract is signed.

Absolutely. The written contract needs to be considered in detail before it can be accepted.

[BolshieBastard]

Actually, no. A verbal commitment is not necessarily a binding contract - it all depends on what was said, to whom and the 'consideration' that was exchanged to make it binding. It is just an expression to enter into a contract and one can withdraw that commitment if so desired if specific knowledge comes to pass that could make the contract null and void or subject to frustration at a later time.

You are perfectly entitled as a Ltd Co to elect not to provide services and you are not obligated to supply those services.

However, if you have real concerns and have a desire (if any) to remain at ClientCo, then air those concerns and build that into the contract by way of terms, conditions etc that afford you the right to terminate should they come to pass. Better to be honest and up front and leave on good terms than to walk away without them knowing why or thinking that you are unprofessional.

A client can't enforce a notice period beyond the end of contract as once you are in your notice period thats that. Each contract should be treated separately and you can only void an existing contract by mutual agreement to then replace it with another. Simple contract law.

Finally, as has been said elsewhere on CUK, whenever you accept a contract offer - always say 'offer accepted subject to contract' which means that from your point of view its not binding until the contract is signed.

This.

What everyone should do when 'agreeing' a contract.

[diesel]

You agree verbally to stay on with the client at your rate x. Client has changed rate to Y, and therefore, the contact has changed and IMHO is invalid. Tell client you will stay at your rate x and given them say 48hrs to decide, that is if you can find another job easily. if it rate cuts across the board you may just have to accept it.
got to admit 4 weeks notice seems rather excessive. But from my recent experience notice is waste of time and only works one way. Client makes you work and give notice period, but they will get rid of you same day if they are not happy.

Actually, no. A verbal commitment is not necessarily a binding contract - it all depends on what was said, to whom and the 'consideration' that was exchanged to make it binding. It is just an expression to enter into a contract and one can withdraw that commitment if so desired if specific knowledge comes to pass that could make the contract null and void or subject to frustration at a later time.

You are perfectly entitled as a Ltd Co to elect not to provide services and you are not obligated to supply those services.

However, if you have real concerns and have a desire (if any) to remain at ClientCo, then air those concerns and build that into the contract by way of terms, conditions etc that afford you the right to terminate should they come to pass. Better to be honest and up front and leave on good terms than to walk away without them knowing why or thinking that you are unprofessional.

A client can't enforce a notice period beyond the end of contract as once you are in your notice period thats that. Each contract should be treated separately and you can only void an existing contract by mutual agreement to then replace it with another. Simple contract law.

Finally, as has been said elsewhere on CUK, whenever you accept a contract offer - always say 'offer accepted subject to contract' which means that from your point of view its not binding until the contract is signed.

[Dearnla]

Got anything to go to, or do you have principles?

[DaveB]

Hi,

Daft question - I think I know the answer (99.9999% sure anyway!!) - currently in contract via ltd company, contract ends at end of week - I've been sent a renewal but haven't signed it, however said verbally I'd renew ... am I bound by this?

A lot changed at clientco - major reorg/redundancies/possible rate cuts - in space of a day I became aware of this and then said not signing extension and will be going elsewhere - however clientco now insisting on 4 weeks notice beyond end of contract...whats my situation here?

I believe legally I just leave at end of contract - morally I would stay if felt needed to assist client in handover but I dont... thoughts?

Thanks!

You could also say that you had not been fully informed of the facts prior to the offer and in light of that your co does not wish to extend it's relationship with client co and will terminate it's services on the contractually agreed end date.