Reply to: should socialists go PAYE?

[Old Greg]

That's always seemed to me to be the correct approach to taxation. And I'm pretty much right wing (though see the political compass for a better approach to political categorisation. ).

Glass-jawed pinko.

[Old Greg]

I love the sig, it's Ringo Starr isn't it?

choo choo!

[TheBigYinJames]

I'm warning you with peace and love I have too much to do

I love the sig, it's Ringo Starr isn't it?

[NotAllThere]

...Abolish employers' NI and increase salaries with the employers' savings.
Abolish all NI and stick it onto Income Tax.
So far, no-one's lost or gained - it's just clearer and we've got no more fibs about what NI is for - it's all tax.
Classify dividends in the same way as earned income and tax accordingly...

That's always seemed to me to be the correct approach to taxation. And I'm pretty much right wing (though see the political compass for a better approach to political categorisation. ).

My only beef with any politico, is when they care more about the ideal than people. So, e.g., lefties that bang on about "the people", without giving two stuffs about individuals.

[Old Greg]

Winston

It is a good thing for an uneducated man to read books of quotations.

Winston

[Jubber]

"If you're not a socialist in your twenties, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative in your forties, you have no brains."

Winston

[Old Greg]

nah, them's weasel words i reckon. lead by example!

(and "oh, but one person can't make a difference" is a despicable, insipid call to apathy if ever i heard one. group action is just individual action in sufficient numbers....)

Bourgeois liberal nonsense (or something like that).

[lambrini_socialist]

How about if you preach that the government should impose higher taxes? Then you would expect to pay them if and when the government imposes them, not before.

nah, them's weasel words i reckon. lead by example!

(and "oh, but one person can't make a difference" is a despicable, insipid call to apathy if ever i heard one. group action is just individual action in sufficient numbers....)

[Old Greg]

i think that's a very fair response to Greg's post.

but seriously, Communists? are they interfering with your bodily fluids, perhaps?

A case for viagra? I see what you're saying.

[expat]

if you're a liberal-leftie commie and preach higher taxes and how wonderful it is to pay more into the government, then lead by example please and quit the hypocrisy

How about if you preach that the government should impose higher taxes? Then you would expect to pay them if and when the government imposes them, not before.

[lambrini_socialist]

if you're a liberal-leftie commie and preach higher taxes and how wonderful it is to pay more into the government, then lead by example please and quit the hypocrisy

i think that's a very fair response to Greg's post.

but seriously, Communists? are they interfering with your bodily fluids, perhaps?

[contractor79]

Your original question contained an interesting dilemma even if it was expressed in a rather provocative and infantile way - 'commie'? Do you live in Dr Strangelove? Several posters have done you the courtesy of giving you a measured response. Not to convert you, I suspect, but to engage in a debate. Why don't you do the same - we might all learn something. And please have a look at wikipedia. You will find that liberalism and communism are quite far removed.

nah, it's all godless big state high taxes thought control stuff

[Old Greg]

if you're a liberal-leftie commie and preach higher taxes and how wonderful it is to pay more into the government, then lead by example please and quit the hypocrisy

Your original question contained an interesting dilemma even if it was expressed in a rather provocative and infantile way - 'commie'? Do you live in Dr Strangelove? Several posters have done you the courtesy of giving you a measured response. Not to convert you, I suspect, but to engage in a debate. Why don't you do the same - we might all learn something. And please have a look at wikipedia. You will find that liberalism and communism are quite far removed.

[contractor79]

if you're a liberal-leftie commie and preach higher taxes and how wonderful it is to pay more into the government, then lead by example please and quit the hypocrisy

[Old Greg]

Not sure I'd say I'm a socialist but I am a leftie and I think we should pay more tax. If it was down to me, I'd sort out the IR35 business like this:

Abolish employers' NI and increase salaries with the employers' savings.
Abolish all NI and stick it onto Income Tax.
So far, no-one's lost or gained - it's just clearer and we've got no more fibs about what NI is for - it's all tax.
Classify dividends in the same way as earned income and tax accordingly (I don't see why return on investment should be taxed less than getting off your @rse and going to work).

Anyway - it's not a policy document and I'm sure it needs some refinement to achieve the objective that there is no advantage to paying yourself dividends. What's more, traditional investors receiving dividends will see that lumped in with their other income and taxed accordingly (subject to normal taxes).

Yet despite all that, I pay myself minimum wage and dividends. The reason for this (or the way I justify it to myself/others, or the excuse I give - depending on how uncharitable you wish to be) is this. Left wing politics is fundamentally about a mass change in society, achieved through the collective efforts of workers not by the change in individual behaviours. This is rooted in the observation that the ordinary person has no power against the ruling class except when he combines with others in a mass movement. This is where there is the power to change things (BTW I think we're a long old way from that at the moment). People who say to lefties 'Why don't you give your money away' or 'Why don't you pay PAYE' mistake left-wing politics for bleeding-heart liberal tortured conscience, or Christianity (apologies to Christian lefties). I'm not having a go at people who do these things, but it won't change the world. So I feel no more open to criticism on this than anyone else who doesn't volunteer to pay more taxes than they have to.

Where I probably am open to criticism from real hard-line lefties is in my self-employment. I left a unionised work place to be self-employed (moving from a place where my future depends on our collective power, to one which I sort out for myself in an I'm alright Jack kind of way). This is fair enough in a way but they were going to TUPE me away from doing the kind of work I like, so anyone who doesn't like it can s*d off - and the very few hardliners I know are much too polite to say it to my face.