Reply to: Terms Not Mirrored - Muppets

[Sockpuppet]

This sounds like a great opportunity to me. Take the second contract, use substitution clause to parachute in a replacement for your current client. If that works, jettission the agent. You now have 2 contracts running. Do the same with your next contract, and sub in a replacement and start contract 3. If this works you have the start of a real business and can start tendering for complete projects.

Will take some doing, but is possible. I know a guy who did a similar thing in the '90s and is rolling in it. Looking for opportunities is far more profitable than negative blame game thinking.

I've already got 3 contracts on the go!!!

I would sub a substitute if I lived anywhere near client co. But its a 100 miles away so I can't easily go if sub can't make it

[Emily]

[QUOTE=Turion;504021]This sounds like a great opportunity to me. Take the second contract, use substitution clause to parachute in a replacement for your current client. If that works, jettission the agent. You now have 2 contracts running. Do the same with your next contract, and sub in a replacement and start contract 3. If this works you have the start of a real business and can start tendering for complete projects.
QUOTE]

Think big. I like it!

[Turion]

This sounds like a great opportunity to me. Take the second contract, use substitution clause to parachute in a replacement for your current client. If that works, jettission the agent. You now have 2 contracts running. Do the same with your next contract, and sub in a replacement and start contract 3. If this works you have the start of a real business and can start tendering for complete projects.

Will take some doing, but is possible. I know a guy who did a similar thing in the '90s and is rolling in it. Looking for opportunities is far more profitable than negative blame game thinking.

[Emily]

The first post says that the contract between the client and agency does not have an end date, it's a continuous contract. That's somewhat different from putting the wrong date on there - it's a completely different employment situation.

And yes, I deliberately used the word "employment" here because that's potentially how HMRC could view it. Someone's almighty cock-up here could well have IR35 implications on our trucking young friend here.

Ok, I need clarification here. You are saying the IR35 implications are caused by the suggestion that the client had it as a continuous contract, is that right? With HMRC likely to take the view- 'if it's indefinite it's employment'. I get that. Doesn't putting a review date on the contract help this situation? I am genuinely asking, because this isn't clear to me.

[TheFaQQer]

What I was saying was that the agency and client must have a contract together and in most cases a schedule of contract dates is sent from the agency to the client. My argument is that if this was the case then it's not necessarily the agents fault.
If you are saying that the agency just made up an end date and didn't tell the client then obviously the agency should be blamed. What it sounds like happened is that the client said we want Sockpuppet to work until April but neither agency nor client agreed on an end date so the agency just made an approximate end date based on the view that they could extend if necessary. Presumption is the mother of all f**k ups as they say.

If you've worked with the client before surely you can speak to them about this, I presume you've made them aware of the situation?

The first post says that the contract between the client and agency does not have an end date, it's a continuous contract. That's somewhat different from putting the wrong date on there - it's a completely different employment situation.

And yes, I deliberately used the word "employment" here because that's potentially how HMRC could view it. Someone's almighty cock-up here could well have IR35 implications on our trucking young friend here.

[Emily]

End of the day the agency who I e-mailed 3 weeks ago (so they knew contract was ending) and asked for a rate rise didn't communicate the contract to the client.

So the client thinks I am giving notice when I am infact just not renewing the contract.

What I was saying was that the agency and client must have a contract together and in most cases a schedule of contract dates is sent from the agency to the client. My argument is that if this was the case then it's not necessarily the agents fault.
If you are saying that the agency just made up an end date and didn't tell the client then obviously the agency should be blamed. What it sounds like happened is that the client said we want Sockpuppet to work until April but neither agency nor client agreed on an end date so the agency just made an approximate end date based on the view that they could extend if necessary. Presumption is the mother of all f**k ups as they say.

If you've worked with the client before surely you can speak to them about this, I presume you've made them aware of the situation?

[TheFaQQer]

So the client thinks I am giving notice when I am infact just not renewing the contract.

And the danger is that once you've gone, the agency puts all the blame on you when you have no chance to put the truth across.

[Sockpuppet]

I can understand SP's frustration here completely.

Having come to the end of the contract, he is now getting grief from the client about not fulfilling the contract! So, do you risk annoying the client by going (when you are meant to leave), or stick to the contract? This is particularly important when there is another contract on the table elsewhere that may not be willing to wait for the contractor.

The problem is that the agency and / or the client messed up. However, rather than realizing where the problem lies, the client has immediately focussed on the contractor.

Exactly. I've worked for this Client before. I did a contract for them (my first one) that lasted 3 months left for another contract and came back to this one again.

I will more than likley end up working for them in the future so the last thing I want to do is cheese them off.

End of the day the agency who I e-mailed 3 weeks ago (so they knew contract was ending) and asked for a rate rise didn't communicate the contract to the client.

So the client thinks I am giving notice when I am infact just not renewing the contract.

[Emily]

I can understand SP's frustration here completely.

Having come to the end of the contract, he is now getting grief from the client about not fulfilling the contract! So, do you risk annoying the client by going (when you are meant to leave), or stick to the contract? This is particularly important when there is another contract on the table elsewhere that may not be willing to wait for the contractor.

The problem is that the agency and / or the client messed up. However, rather than realizing where the problem lies, the client has immediately focussed on the contractor.

Indeed, I understand SP's frustration, I was referring generally to the 'blame the agency' mentality when it's sometimes misplaced. Sorry for not making that clear, I do totally understand what an issue it has caused SP. It sucks.

If he leaves on the Agency end date then it will be the Agency who gets it in the neck from the client, he just needs to make sure the client understand that he is in no way breaching his contract. If its handled professionally by SP then there should be no issue and he has another contract lined up already so he's in a position of strength.

[TheFaQQer]

I do understand the frustrations contractors feel, but in some cases it isn't justified. I'm just not convinced on this one but that's only because we don't have the complete picture.

I can understand SP's frustration here completely.

Having come to the end of the contract, he is now getting grief from the client about not fulfilling the contract! So, do you risk annoying the client by going (when you are meant to leave), or stick to the contract? This is particularly important when there is another contract on the table elsewhere that may not be willing to wait for the contractor.

The problem is that the agency and / or the client messed up. However, rather than realizing where the problem lies, the client has immediately focussed on the contractor.

[Emily]

At the end of the day they are supposed to be professionals. This does not make them look like professionals!! Finally, it can't be just a client cock up if the agency signed the contract.....

I can only speak from experience but generally the client gets sent a 'client schedule' confirming the contract dates, so if that happened then the client are as much to blame.

I agree in general terms that a lot of agencies are not as professional as they should be. There are many who don't screen candidates properly if at all, who don't seem to undertand the importance of sending contractors contracts and who see IR35 as some mysterious concept which they don't need to worry about.

I do understand the frustrations contractors feel, but in some cases it isn't justified. I'm just not convinced on this one but that's only because we don't have the complete picture.

[Sockpuppet]

Well they cocked up again last night.

I am finishing in 5 days (next Friday) new contract starts the Monday after.

They sent me a form asking stuff such as:

What is your DOB
Do you object to a credit check? Would you pass a credit check?
Do you object to a medical? Would you pass a medical?

WTF?

It went in the bin.

[Ardesco]

I understand it if the agency has done wrong but it doesn't seem they have on this one. Also, you do understnad that a lot of agencies work on tiny tiny margins and the commissions for the consultants aren't necessarily as big as you think they are? I used to work in an agency and there 2 house accounts were at 5.6% and 6.5%, and because most of the time they are set margins (as these two examples were) it is in the consultants interest to get you more money!

Of course there are the rogue wide boys who everyone hates, but I just wanted to stick up for agencies generally. In doing so I understand I am likely to face a tirrade of abuse for my views.

The problem is that cock ups like this do effect us as evidenced by the special commissioner Hellier's findings in the recent IR35 cases that were lost. The HMRC is trying to look at the contract between the agency and the end client rather than the contract between the client and the agency. Mistakes like this could potentially bring Sockpuppet into an IR35 caught position where he previously could have been safe.

Agencies really need to up their game in this area and if punishing them is the way do do it then by all means punish them. They may have made a simple mistake in this occasion, but if Sockpuppet takes advantage of it they should learn from their mistake and make damn well sure they do't do it again.

At the end of the day they are supposed to be professionals. This does not make them look like professionals!! Finally, it can't be just a client cock up if the agency signed the contract.....

[Emily]

Could have been a client cock up.

Indeed I see no wrong in trying to make more money, that's what is business is about (hence agencies try for higher margins and contractors contract), but as we women often say - 'it's not what you said, it's how you said it!'

[TheFaQQer]

I understand it if the agency has done wrong but it doesn't seem they have on this one. Also, you do understnad that a lot of agencies work on tiny tiny margins and the commissions for the consultants aren't necessarily as big as you think they are? I used to work in an agency and there 2 house accounts were at 5.6% and 6.5%, and because most of the time they are set margins (as these two examples were) it is in the consultants interest to get you more money!

Of course there are the rogue wide boys who everyone hates, but I just wanted to stick up for agencies generally. In doing so I understand I am likely to face a tirrade of abuse for my views.

The agency has done no wrong regarding the contract with SP, but they have messed up with the client. There is a chance to get some more money out of the agency, therefore you are only fulfilling your obligations as a company director in seeking to maximise profit.

My heart bleeds for all agencies out there - the one I'm currently through are on 9.9% and cut it to get me a better rate than the client wanted to pay, so I do appreciate that there are some good ones out there.