Reply to: NI and D.O.B...?

[Not So Wise]

NI and DOB could be coming from companies or local government that are using services like Comensura, basically a "service provider management company" aka another intermediary agency that manages the dealings between agencies and clients.

Place I am working at the moment started using them about 6 months ago and they started demanding this kind of stuff and references from all new and existing contractors otherwise their contracts would not get renewed

Told them to go to hell and funny enough still got my contract renewed

[tim123]

I (and I suspect a number of others) would be very interested to see the "chapter and verse" of the relevant law.

I suspect it's just an over enthusiastic interpretation, but I confess I haven't read the relevant Act and/or Statutory Instruments.

you may be right:

the reg that I think is applicable is here:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/SI/si2003/20033075.htm.

It is clear to me that the requirement in 4(2)c is satisfied and that someone ought to do some checking.

What is not clear is:

1) Why the term 'person' means you personally and your Limited Company. I agree that it should be the latter, but I am sure that I have seen a claim somewhere that it isn't.

2) Even if it does mean you, why the exception in 5(3) doesn't apply (with your limited being the second party and you being the third). Though this does only seem to apply to a one-off transaction and not to a series.

3) that the agency is a relevant business, as it doesn't immediately appear to be covered by the list in 2(2). But then it is absolutely certain that a car dealer (selling high priced cars) is a relevant business and that isn't obviously on the list either.

Perhaps this is all explained in the guidance notes, which will have no legal force if the act doesn't actually say what was intended. But proving that will require someone (the identity checker, not the identity giver) to stand up and challenge it.

tim

[Peoplesoft bloke]

But under the ML laws you are not. It doesn't matter how many times you say that you think your company is capable of 'validating' your identity. The law says that this is not enough.

tim

I (and I suspect a number of others) would be very interested to see the "chapter and verse" of the relevant law.

I suspect it's just an over enthusiastic interpretation, but I confess I haven't read the relevant Act and/or Statutory Instruments.

[malvolio]

But under the ML laws you are not. It doesn't matter how many times you say that you think your company is capable of 'validating' your identity. The law says that this is not enough.

tim

Bollocks. MyCo has exactly the same legal weight and presence as Tesco. It has proved my identity to the satisfaction of at least three of my clients, including this one. It's certainly a lot more qualified than some agency to do so, who will use irrelevant and marginally legal information incorrectly gathered and badly stored.

The law is about who is llable for the fines should it be proved that a worker should not be working here. I'm more than happy for MyCo to accept that liability, in writing and contractually if necessary, since it has checked properly that it will never happen.

[ratewhore]

What does the law say? And what is the difference between my Ltd asserting proof of identity and another Ltd, with whom I have a contractual relationship to provide services, asserting proof of identity?

[tim123]

Except, dear boy, I work for a UK limited company that is perfectly capable of asserting the rights of its workforce to be in the UK and that they are who they say they are.

But under the ML laws you are not. It doesn't matter how many times you say that you think your company is capable of 'validating' your identity. The law says that this is not enough.

tim

[SueEllen]

Why do you people have a problem with this?

The agency are required to obtain this information from you (that is "you" the actual worker, not "you", your company) under the ML laws, on pain of a very big (7 figure) fine for not doing so.

Any agency who doesn't do this, is looking to go bankrupt, taking you oustanding fees with them, if they are singled out for an ML audit.

If you don't like this law, I suggest that you lobby your MP, not shoot the messenger.

tim

How does your DOB and your NI number verify your citizenship?

The two are not related as DOB is meaningless on it's own and your NI number could be one of the many that are duplicated. Plus unless the contractor is on the agency's payroll the information is of absolutely no use to them.

Verifying and taking a photocopy of someone's passport is not a problem and complies with a law in question.

Asking for irrelevant information is a waste of everyone's time.

[malvolio]

Why do you people have a problem with this?

The agency are required to obtain this information from you (that is "you" the actual worker, not "you", your company) under the ML laws, on pain of a very big (7 figure) fine for not doing so.

Any agency who doesn't do this, is looking to go bankrupt, taking you oustanding fees with them, if they are singled out for an ML audit.

If you don't like this law, I suggest that you lobby your MP, not shoot the messenger.

tim

Except, dear boy, I work for a UK limited company that is perfectly capable of asserting the rights of its workforce to be in the UK and that they are who they say they are. They can even provide you with a copy of my passport, produced in line with all current legislation and guidance, to prove the fact. Why, then, do I need to do anything myself to repeat all that burden of proof? After all, if BP and the MOD will accept it, I fail to see why some modified double-glazing salesman should have a problem.

[PAH]

Maybe it's because in the current climate of personal info being mis-used or 'lost' that us cynical bunch don't expect the agencies to be any better at handling such info than the government who forces them to.

[tim123]

Why do you people have a problem with this?

The agency are required to obtain this information from you (that is "you" the actual worker, not "you", your company) under the ML laws, on pain of a very big (7 figure) fine for not doing so.

Any agency who doesn't do this, is looking to go bankrupt, taking you oustanding fees with them, if they are singled out for an ML audit.

If you don't like this law, I suggest that you lobby your MP, not shoot the messenger.

tim

[PAH]

Does anyone on here have a technique for avoiding handing over references too early, or at all?

I sometimes provide semi-fake references (such as the wrong person or someone I know has left the company) if asked before I've signed the contract. Partly to see if they do follow them up, and partly to wind them up without them knowing.

If they do follow them up and come back saying the person left or is incontactible, I may then give them the real ones and not another set of close-but-not-quite usable ones.

I'm sure it amuses them. I like to brighten up their day.

[MrRobin]

Have been asked for DOB before, I just give day and month. Not year. It would be illegal if they came back to you and asked for year. (I think)

No reason for them wanting your NI number... it is probably some clown agent who is used to an agency that employs people as temps etc...

[BrowneIssue]

Does anyone on here have a technique for avoiding handing over references too early, or at all?

NEVER provide referees' contact details unless you are being offered the gig. The ONLY reason agencies want them prior to that is so that they can call them up for leads. Everything else is a lie.

My response is:

"I have 3 referees available. All 3 have now told me they do not want their details given out unless it is to support a job offer because all 3 have been hassled by the less reputable agencies for leads. If the client offers me the contract I shall give you their details. However, I can tell you they are a Senior Programme Manager and a Departmental Head from local government and a senior IT manager from central government."

I've spent ages putting that response together - it is working consistently for me.


Incidentally, for the last 6 gigs I did, no references were followed up. Nor for the two contract offers I had last year.

[Cheshire Cat]

Out of interest, what is the usual requirement for references? I've sometimes been asked for references before being offered a gig, sometimes after being offered, and sometimes not at all.
I very much doubt there's any legal requirement for you to provide a reference.
Does anyone on here have a technique for avoiding handing over references too early, or at all? I don't mind any of my referees being contacted for genuine reasons, but I wouldn't want people I've worked with before being harrassed by over-keen agents fishing for leads. I always make sure I get permission from referee before passing on details, tell the agents that the referee is expecting them to contact, and ensure the referee knows that this is in relation to a specific job and that if the agent starts to fish, feel free to tell them to do one.

[dude69]

Hi,

After replying to a gig I've been asked to send my DOB and NI number along with my CV.... I'm a bit concerned about doing this from the security aspect.

Is it normal practise? Agency said it was to check that I was legally allowed to work in the UK (which I am)

cheers

They should not be asking for DOB.

That is an illegal question in breach of age discrimination legislation.

It should not be on your CV.