Reply to: HELP!!! New to contracting, desperately need advice about the Opt-out form?

[minstrel]

My position: Negotiations just broke down with my agent. Contract up for renewal next week, the client is happy to take me, but me and the agent don't see eye-to-eye on the rates.

Is it that you don't see eye-to-eye on the rates or is it the agent's margin that you have the issue with?

Is the client only happy to take you at the current rate they are paying the agent or are they prepared to take you at your new rate plus agent's margin? I suspect it's the former as if it was the latter there would be no problem.

If the client isn't prepared to be pay any more at renewal then your negotiations are simply around the agent's margin.

I would have thought there's got to be something to protect the agent in this situation otherwise at first renewal every contractor would turn to agent and say "lower your margin to 2% or I'm going direct".

[malvolio]

TBH I wouldn't expect to be asked for a transfer fee from an agency that had lost the business...

However, as a negotiating point, the most you should consider is their direct losses, which are no more than the commission they would have earned for the length of your renewal - the one that they have failed to secure - which I would say is their margin on whatever your rate is for n days.

[ilgitano]

No matter. The client is bigger than the agency, if they want you they will politely tell the agency to go play somewhere else.

Apart from that if the agency cannot agree terms and will lose you the gig as a result, and you can agree terms with the client and retain it, they can hardly sue you for their failure to secure the work. Their choice is simple, get the contract agreed or get the hell out of the way.

The test of a valid handcuff clause that the courts will use is "Is it reasonable?" Clearly you being put out of work for no reason other than the clause itself and the agency's inability to do their job properly is not reasonable.

Pretty much what I was hoping to hear. Thanks for that . . . what are typical tactics taken by agents in this scenario?

It seems if they threaten the client, they risk souring a relationship. Can I expect lawyers letters, or will they chalk it up to 'experience'?

Looking at the agency regs (which I *might* still be inside of) a transfer-fee could be involved? Any way to predict what that might be?

[malvolio]

Damn. You are correct. Should have been opt-OUT (now corrected if you re-read the post )

No matter. The client is bigger than the agency, if they want you they will politely tell the agency to go play somewhere else.

Apart from that if the agency cannot agree terms and will lose you the gig as a result, and you can agree terms with the client and retain it, they can hardly sue you for their failure to secure the work. Their choice is simple, get the contract agreed or get the hell out of the way.

The test of a valid handcuff clause that the courts will use is "Is it reasonable?" Clearly you being put out of work for no reason other than the clause itself and the agency's inability to do their job properly is not reasonable.

[ilgitano]

Sounds the complete opposite to Diamond. Diamond is getting pressure to opt out by umbrella, you're saying you were forced to opt in.

You can't really be forced to opt in as that is the default position, so I suspect they told you to opt out. Is your nice clear email log clear about whether you are in or out?

If you are opted out, then you need to wait for the 6 months in the contract before going direct.

If you are opted in, then I think you only need to wait about 8 weeks.

Either way you can't just screw the agent and cut him out of the loop without expecting him to come after you.

My advice would be to not negotiate with the agent too much. Tell him the rate you are prepared to work for and if he can't make that happen walk away at the end of the contract.

Damn. You are correct. Should have been opt-OUT (now corrected if you re-read the post )

[minstrel]

Funnily enough - my situation is identical to Diamond786; ended up hitting the opt-in when I was 'told' to by the umbrella; and the opt-in was shown to me AFTER I was interviewed by the client - Got a nice clear email log of that too.

Trying to work out - can I go direct and tell the agent to - umm - go away?

Sounds the complete opposite to Diamond. Diamond is getting pressure to opt out by umbrella, you're saying you were forced to opt in.

You can't really be forced to opt in as that is the default position, so I suspect they told you to opt out. Is your nice clear email log clear about whether you are in or out?

If you are opted out, then you need to wait for the 6 months in the contract before going direct.

If you are opted in, then I think you only need to wait about 8 weeks.

Either way you can't just screw the agent and cut him out of the loop without expecting him to come after you.

My advice would be to not negotiate with the agent too much. Tell him the rate you are prepared to work for and if he can't make that happen walk away at the end of the contract.

[ilgitano]

No, a classic case of someone asking for real advice on a focused subject, as opposed to the more usual "Hi, I'm going contracting, what do I need to do?".

Any bets how long before we get the next of those?

LOL Like Now? (me) (or did you mean the "newbie" - I was that 8 months ago)

My position: Negotiations just broke down with my agent. Contract up for renewal next week, the client is happy to take me, but me and the agent don't see eye-to-eye on the rates.

I'm in a limited company, and the client has said change agents (or go direct?) - which I'm happy to do. But the contract has that restriction - can't work for the end client for 6 months after contract termination.

Funnily enough - my situation is identical to Diamond786; ended up hitting the opt-out when I was 'told' to by the umbrella; and the opt-out was shown to me AFTER I was interviewed by the client - Got a nice clear email log of that too.

Trying to work out - can I go direct and tell the agent to - umm - go away?

[Moscow Mule]

Erm, nope... Saturday...

http://forums.contractoruk.com/thread19504.html

:sigh

[malvolio]

It'll be Monday.

Erm, nope... Saturday...

http://forums.contractoruk.com/thread19504.html

[Moscow Mule]

No, a classic case of someone asking for real advice on a focused subject, as opposed to the more usual "Hi, I'm going contracting, what do I need to do?".

Any bets how long before we get the next of those?

It'll be Monday.

[malvolio]

A helpful thread to a newbie asking advice? I feel dirty....

No, a classic case of someone asking for real advice on a focused subject, as opposed to the more usual "Hi, I'm going contracting, what do I need to do?".

Any bets how long before we get the next of those?

[Epiphone]

A helpful thread to a newbie asking advice? I feel dirty....

(Congrats to OP on the gig though )

[Diamond786]

Diamond - if you're just looking to do go contracting short term via the umbrella and hoping that it'll turn into a permanent gig I wouldn't worry about it.

The opt-in/opt-out thing probably won't affect you too much and as people have pointed out already, there's a strong chance that even if you do sign the opt-out forms it doesn't count legally as you've already met the client.

If you kick up a fuss there's a chance they could ditch you and pick someone else (as AntiChrist said).

If I were you, I'd sign the contract and turn up on Monday. Try and avoid signing the opt-out form, but if they really kick up a stink, just sign it.

And most importantly, stop worrying about it and get down the pub to celebrate!

A note for ALL of you who have helped, im gonna just go along on Mon with my fingers and toes crossed and hope for the best.. If its meant to work out, it will.. A little faith I guess...

But YES!! Im getting ready... and I hope you ALL have an AB FAB weekend

[minstrel]

Funny you ask, yes the agency recommended and put me in touch with the Umbrella, and the Umbrella even has an Account Manager for the agency (who is supposed to be calling me after my stating I was already opted in).

I am supposed to start with the company on Mon, have not yet signed the contract, seems they have struggled to find someone to fit the bill and the end client were def keen on having me.. plus I have been on-site for a 2 hour handover already...

Should I just sign the contract and opt-out via email? or form? (but then again this signature wouldnt even be valid) so what difference would it make now???

I wanna go out and celebrate.. Great company, nice job.. long term prospects defo... BUT IM INDOORS... Boggling my mind....

Diamond - if you're just looking to do go contracting short term via the umbrella and hoping that it'll turn into a permanent gig I wouldn't worry about it.

The opt-in/opt-out thing probably won't affect you too much and as people have pointed out already, there's a strong chance that even if you do sign the opt-out forms it doesn't count legally as you've already met the client.

If you kick up a fuss there's a chance they could ditch you and pick someone else (as AntiChrist said).

If I were you, I'd sign the contract and turn up on Monday. Try and avoid signing the opt-out form, but if they really kick up a stink, just sign it.

And most importantly, stop worrying about it and get down the pub to celebrate!

[malvolio]

Depends on exactly what "introduced to the client" means, there is some debate on that and the regs themselves are not explicit (but then they're so badly written even the opt out is not clear!)

Anyway I've dropped Diamond768 a PM, siggesting a route which might help things along...