Reply to: PCG Insurance

[The Lone Gunman]

To answer that one, the bulk of the cost of the basic £120 PCG membership goes on the PEI insurance premium. The economics are actually quite weird, but becuase of the bulk discounts we get, lowering the fees would actually have a serious effect on the coverage offered. And if we detach the insurance from the membership fee, we become an insurance broker and have to jump through a whole other set of regulatory hurdles - which is not what we're there for.

And £120 a year - not really very much, is it...?

Fair point. Union fees work out about that much and don't offer as much.

[malvolio]

To answer that one, the bulk of the cost of the basic £120 PCG membership goes on the PEI insurance premium. The economics are actually quite weird, but becuase of the bulk discounts we get, lowering the fees would actually have a serious effect on the coverage offered. And if we detach the insurance from the membership fee, we become an insurance broker and have to jump through a whole other set of regulatory hurdles - which is not what we're there for.

And £120 a year - not really very much, is it...?

[The Lone Gunman]

No it isn't. I just think that supporting the PCG is the lesser of two evils: not doing anything and doing something. Let's not forget that the PCG were instrumental in bringing about the ludicrous ''opting out' option for limited company contractors - something that has only serviced the EBs with no discernable benefits to contractors. They also have EBs as affiliates and it appears that they don't really need to earn the right to affiliate by ensuring that their contracts are PCG ones either. This I find totally unacceptable.

On the other hand, I feel that contractors need to mobilise now, more than ever, as I've been saying for years now, if they are going to stem the tidal wave of abuses being directed against them.

I would start something of my own if I thought that sufficient backing was there. Something I'd been toying with for some time now. However, I see little point in doing this if my own project is unlikely to generate the degree of support it needs to grow and survive.

I agree with that Den. I also like the idea of PCG membership at a low cost level similar to Union fees and, I assume, on Union lines. Maybe the PCG should consider setting up a "Union".

[The Lone Gunman]

That didn't take long.
So are PCG the inland revenue? Just because they believe your not inside IR35 doesn't mean the IR will agree. Is it not best to have cover for a contract QDOS believe is outside IR35 but just in case you still have all the other costs covered. For a few quid more that makes more sense too me.
Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm sure you will.

May I answer this one?
Inland revenue penalties can only be charged when the guilty party has claimed to be outside IR35 with no evidence to support this stance.
Charges and penalties will not be charged where the guilty party has made enough effort to show they are without IR35.

A statement from QDOS or B&C stating your IR35 status is as good evidence as you can get as they are recognised experts in the field (thye have been involved in many a win against the revenue).

Should you still be found to be within IR35 you will only be liable for the unpaid tax. No penalties will apply.

In defence of Malvolio
Mal has been posting advice on this board for quite some time. He always posts his honest and well informed opinion. He does not try and lead people astray.
He is fiercely supportive of the PCG and makes no apology for that stance.
He gives his advice freely and generously.

I can well understand why he is short with some of the people who "crash into this board".
A quick read of the guides on this site and a simple search of the forums will answer most newby questions, yet we still see the same questions rolling in again and again.
One has to ask if contreacting is a suitable career option for anyone who can not do the simple tasks stated above.
Then we see people who question the validity of the advice. Mals advice is just that, advice. If people don't like it they are free to not take it.
If others have other advice then they are free to offer it, but arguing that Mal is a pillock for not offering that advice is unproductive.

I, like Denny, am no lover of the PCG, but I would advise any contractor to join, especialy a newby. The range of products is excellent and the access to the knowledge base is invaluable.

Remember that everybody who gives advice on this board does so honestly. We all have businesses to run and work to do so we can do without repeating what we have said before or searching the forums for a previous answer.
If you dont like the advice then dont take it. If you have an alternative answer then give it, you will receive valid opinions on it.

Regrads TLG.

[malvolio]

It's not just about the insurance benefits anymore, see it as an investment in your future as a contractor. Sometimes you have to take a risk and spend money to save money. See it that way. I do.

So the propaganda is sinking in at last, eh Denny??

[GreenerGrass]

Contractors need to mobilise to ward off any possibility of being PAYE/NI in full irrespective of whether we want to run a owner managed operation or not. This is exactly the way we are heading, if we show ourselves to be apathetic or free riders.

Provided the EBs don't have a hand in steering the direction all of this goes in, then we have a fighting chance if PCG numbers are high enough - but it seems that the PCG needs more members to achieve this. They also need to broaden out their horizons and appeal to contractors who don't want to pay full membership fees as well. Perhaps offer a lower membership package that is more like a union subscription. At the moment the PCG is far too incestuous for its own good.

Therefore, if you truly care about IR35 issues and the future tax status of owner managed companies in general, then I would sign up to the PCG (if only the standard membership) and give them your support. It's not just about the insurance benefits anymore, see it as an investment in your future as a contractor. Sometimes you have to take a risk and spend money to save money. See it that way. I do.

I have just signed up as it seems to appeal to a broad base of owner managed operations not just IT contractors (for which I am not one).

Yes Denny, for once I see it the same way, albeit with just marginally less paranoia .
I'm not bothered about saving an hour's earnings on the annual insurance costs when you look at the bigger picture.
Lawyers and accountants do not lobby on our behalf, the PCG does.

[malvolio]

It's a question of approach, as much as anything. I work on the basis that if you want to make a serious go of being a contractor, esepcially in a business environment that is increasingly hostile to us, you had better by God be aware of the pitfalls and be certain in your own mind you can stand up to harsh words and criticism - because that's what you'll have to face up to from people who really don't know what they're talking about, like politicians and permie middle managers. If you can't hack that here, in a fairly friendly space, you won't get too far out in the real world. Go back over the years I've been hauntng these baords and you'll find I've also been totally consistent - I'm rude to everyone who thinks that being a contractor is easy. But I always answer the question, just not in the way people always expect.

And the board's version of GIGO applies - ask dumb questions and get dumb answers, ask good questions and get good ones - and I think most of the regulars take that approach. I'm just less polite about it
Incidentally, the PCG persona is completely different and much closer to the real me. (is that good or bad? I'll let you decide!). Malvolio started as an experiment, and turned out to be quite successful, so I keep him alive.

[ash]

Jeez, sensitive little soul, aren't you? If you work on live trading systems, or safety critical software development of any one of a dozen other specialisations, the potential for causing harm to your client's interests are significantly higher than me sorting out Support Services. As a result any PI claim will be larger and your PI insurance cost will be higher. That is what I meant by actuarial risk - you can do more damage than I can, hence you pay a higher insurance premium. Other than that I have no idea how Randall Dorling factor their risks and set their premiums, beyond observing that members who fix North Sea oil platforms seem to pay higher premiums than people who provide accounting software.

So the sub text is ask RD (or anyone else) what the premium is, then ask them to re-quote you as PCG member. Then you will know the right answer, as opposed to a half-competent guess.

I've said it before, I'll say it again - I am not points scoring and I'm really not interested if people like me or not (an awful lot don't,but I'm still here), the idea is to make people think about what they are doing a little harder.

Sometimes I seem to fail in that aim...

I will indeed ask RD for a re-quote as a PCG member, good suggestion.

I'm just bemused by your attitude. It seems you have much knowledge to offer, but it always seems to be done begrudgingly and with a know-all undertone. If you want the greater good for the contracting community, you may wish to address this. If not, then keep on the way you are, but don't harp on altruistically about the PCG benefitting everyone, when at the same time you discourage open communication on these forums and hence hinder knowledge-sharing among the community by scaring people off. It only seems to reinforce that your intent is personal satisfaction and your ego rather than being helpful.

[malvolio]

Errrrr what does actuarial risk have to do with trading systems? One is related to banking, the other to insurance. No need for the completely unrelated cheap dig... particularly when it backfires.

Jeez, sensitive little soul, aren't you? If you work on live trading systems, or safety critical software development of any one of a dozen other specialisations, the potential for causing harm to your client's interests are significantly higher than me sorting out Support Services. As a result any PI claim will be larger and your PI insurance cost will be higher. That is what I meant by actuarial risk - you can do more damage than I can, hence you pay a higher insurance premium. Other than that I have no idea how Randall Dorling factor their risks and set their premiums, beyond observing that members who fix North Sea oil platforms seem to pay higher premiums than people who provide accounting software.

So the sub text is ask RD (or anyone else) what the premium is, then ask them to re-quote you as PCG member. Then you will know the right answer, as opposed to a half-competent guess.

I've said it before, I'll say it again - I am not points scoring and I'm really not interested if people like me or not (an awful lot don't,but I'm still here), the idea is to make people think about what they are doing a little harder.

Sometimes I seem to fail in that aim...

[ash]

You will have access to the insurance and the discounts. Whether or not they want to insure you is a different question...

And, to be fair, one they can answer regardless of your PCG membership status. But then, if you're into live trading systems, surely you ought to understand actuarial risk?

Of course I'll have access to the member benefits if I'm a paid member, but the intent of the question was whether there's an excess applied to policies for people working on trading systems. I was hoping you or someone else already a member might be able to advise me of that.

Errrrr what does actuarial risk have to do with trading systems? One is related to banking, the other to insurance. No need for the completely unrelated cheap dig... particularly when it backfires.

I appreciate you taking the time to answer this and other peoples' questions, but it seems your motivation for doing so is NOT to help, but to try and prove your worth over others. If you want to help, ditch the chip off your shoulder and provide your help without the sniping, and your knowledge will be greatly beneficial to the community. If your ego won't allow that, it's probably better for everyone if you don't post at all.

People enter this forum with good intentions and the majority phrase their questions and opinions based on the best available knowledge to them. It should be a friendly and helpful resource that betters the UK contracting community. If you're going to attempt to put people down, which seems to be the case if anyone questions you or disagrees with your opinions, people will be too intimidated to post, and the overall knowledge base of the community will suffer.

[malvolio]

Does the PI insurance PCG provide cover to contractors who work on live trading systems? I notice that Randell Dorling's doesn't. Even though there are some nice benefits of PCG membership, I don't want to plough in and pay for membership only to find out I don't have access to their insurance.

Thanks for the help.

You will have access to the insurance and the discounts. Whether or not they want to insure you is a different question...

And, to be fair, one they can answer regardless of your PCG membership status. But then, if you're into live trading systems, surely you ought to understand actuarial risk?

[ash]

Yes thanks.







Oh, I see. Assuming a routine IT contracting model, around £200-£240. Somewhere around par with market, maybe a little under. It's a member-only offer from the suppliers, not a PCG prodcut, which is why they won't quote you as a non-member. Without the PCG-package shared risk aspect and the discount, my cover would be around £450 btw, so I think it's worth it.

But if you add up all the freebie member benefits you get from PCG membership and cost them separately you save around £1k a year. PCG is not just there as a money-saving exercise, join them anyway!

Does the PI insurance PCG provide cover to contractors who work on live trading systems? I notice that Randell Dorling's doesn't. Even though there are some nice benefits of PCG membership, I don't want to plough in and pay for membership only to find out I don't have access to their insurance.

Thanks for the help.

[TheRightStuff]

It's up to you. I don't know what is better or worse just the different costs as I have looked into it for myself. I personally went for QDOS as I wanted Tax Loss cover but I must admit Malvolio makes good points for not needing it. But then I can always get a pro-rata refund at any time.

I agree that he does make a good point but an extra £50 you get alot more from QDOS.

[Lewis]

So are you saying Qdos is good or just go for PCG plus.

It's up to you. I don't know what is better or worse just the different costs as I have looked into it for myself. I personally went for QDOS as I wanted Tax Loss cover but I must admit Malvolio makes good points for not needing it. But then I can always get a pro-rata refund at any time.

[TheRightStuff]

Don't get it do you? I'm not that bothered about which insurance you get and why. All I'm trying to do is make people look at all sodes of the arguments. If I son't win, then fine, at least I tried.

As for polite, why should I be, when every week we see people crashing into the board asking the same dumbass questions. About one in twenty gets it and responds positively. The rest I could care less about - if they can't cope with honest straight talking from me, they're going to struggle as a standalone freelance.

Being freelance is not about being straight talking or polite. It's about being professional. Your response is not. If you are not polite then you will struggle.
You may think many questions are stupid because you think you are the 'fountain of all knowledge'. However, the people who 'crash into the board' are not crashers but new members who have little experience and require assistance.

Maybe more people would join the PCG but because of the way you reply to their questions you put them off. Next time some 'crasher ' asks a 'dumb' question why not simply paste the link to another thread. It would take you less time to do this then going on about searching and having a go at new members. Funny the 1st few times I read your posts but now it's just getting boring ............... Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz