Reply to: Do I need "right to work" visa if I work on UK contract from home in Switzerland?

[NotAllThere]

PM sent.

[Mark Allen]

Many thanks for your posts, both of you. They are very helpful. Banking is not an issue, nor correct companies. I have them where I need them. Legally. I follow all the rules. Goodness, I have been over here for more than 30 years.

I only need to get the UK agency to follow the rules, all the rules and be a bit flexible with their contracts. To be willing to modify some clauses for a person working outside of the UK. I am fairly sure I am not the first person to have to do this, although I know I am the FIRST at this agency. {sigh...}

Thanks again for all the posts. Really good information I am getting for you all.

Have a great day,
Mark

[Mark Allen]

Thank you for the good information.

>> You do not need a right to work visa if you are working from Switzerland.
>> You don't need a right to work visa if you are attending business meetings or training in the UK.
>> You might well get away with working a little a few days a month in the UK without a visa,
>> but you might have some explaining to do.

True, but I have been doing this for 30 years and only had a one time issue at the border and it was quickly resolved. Only going their as a tourist or for business meetings. All over within 2 weeks, max.


>> Your problems are two fold. 1) You have to convince the agency (tricky when they're not smart)
>> 2) You can't get a statement from UK immigrations either way - you have to make the decision and take the consequences.

>> I am concerned that the immigration authorities might consider your ltd co as evidence that
>> you're working, but that may be groundless.

Passport records would easily show I go in for 2 weeks every Christmas, and a couple of times for meetings. In and out in a week or two weeks. I can easily show that I am not in the UK beyond this. Bank account is fine, thanks.

>> You might also ask your question on the UK immigration boards and also englishforum.ch, where you might find others in your position.

Thanks, I will check this. Have you a specific UK.GOV web page which covers this 'compliance' piece? Because I would read it through to also become informed on the details.


>> Finally, I can tell you the agencies I worked through if you like.

Yes, this would be great. Thank you.


Ok, this is good information and follows basically what I believe, too. I have my London solicitor working on the 'legal' points and may get them to produce a document, if it is my favour. Then do a telco with the agency and solicitor, et al. Maybe this group could then come to a solution.

Thanks for all your help. If you have anything else, it would be much appreciated.
Mark

[NotAllThere]

FATCA would apply even if he gets Swiss citizenship unless he renounces his US citizenship.

In my original post, I lightheartedly suggested that he might like to get CH citizenship and renounce US for that reason.

As to opening a UK bank account, if his Swiss wife is a director in his company, presumably she'd be able to get it opened.

Good point. At least for the next year or so.

[WordIsBond]

I think you'll find you can't and haven't been able to since 2012, when Raiffeisen announced they were closing all US citizens accounts, due to FATCA requirements (although some with a personal relationship with their bank manager have managed it). The full list of banks that allow, or may allow US citizens to open accounts with them is here. Yes, this is off-topic, but it is quite a serious gap in your knowledge if you are unaware of the issues surrouding FATCA and its effects on US citizens living in Switzerland.

FATCA would apply even if he gets Swiss citizenship unless he renounces his US citizenship. Dual citizens of the US and other countries fall under FATCA as well.

There are a host of tax considerations for US citizens having businesses abroad. The latest is not even the most egregious. Form 5471 every single year, PFIC tax treatment of mutual fund investments, etc, etc, etc. If you are an American and you took out your mortgage when the dollar was weaker vs the pound than it is now, don't remortgage or even make significant lump sum overpayments, unless you want to get hit with a huge tax on foreign currency gains!

And if you marry an American, you better do it for love and not money, because getting dragged into the US tax system makes the money side of it a nightmare.

As to opening a UK bank account, if his Swiss wife is a director in his company, presumably she'd be able to get it opened.

[NotAllThere]

You might also need to consider this:

Incidentally, I hope you know what you're doing w/r to US taxes. Even before the recent changes, it was an absolute minefield being a US citizen and director of a Controlled Foreign Corporation. Are you treating this income as pass-through?

I believe with the recent tax changes, you're now pretty screwed with the repatriation rules too.

https://www.ft.com/content/cb6762f4-...7-42f857ea9f09

(if you're not a subscriber, Google: "Americans abroad hit by Trump’s new repatriation tax rules")

[NotAllThere]

...and can open a bank account in any Swiss bank I desire. Raiffeisen is good bank and there is one in our village.

I think you'll find you can't and haven't been able to since 2012, when Raiffeisen announced they were closing all US citizens accounts, due to FATCA requirements (although some with a personal relationship with their bank manager have managed it). The full list of banks that allow, or may allow US citizens to open accounts with them is here. Yes, this is off-topic, but it is quite a serious gap in your knowledge if you are unaware of the issues surrouding FATCA and its effects on US citizens living in Switzerland.

But this takes away from my question: does UK laws require me to have a "right to work" visa if I am working from Switzerland?

You do not need a right to work visa if you are working from Switzerland. You don't need a right to work visa if you are attending business meetings or training in the UK. You might well get away with working a little a few days a month in the UK without a visa, but you might have some explaining to do.

You can search this yourself on the government web sites.

Your problems are two fold. 1) You have to convince the agency (tricky when they're not smart) 2) You can't get a statement from UK immigrations either way - you have to make the decision and take the consequences.

I am concerned that the immigration authorities might consider your ltd co as evidence that you're working, but that may be groundless.

I assume you've already managed to open a bank account for your ltd co - because with Theresa May's "harsh environment for illegal immigrants" policy, you personally probably can't open an account. Maybe you can with HSBC or such like based in the Channel Islands.

I worked for a UK company for several years up until 2016, from Switzerland via my Swiss GmbH quite happily. Although I have a right to work by virture of being British, I was not required to prove it. I did attend a few meetings everyone now and then in the UK. But it really was meetings - I wasn't there to work.

You might also ask your question on the UK immigration boards and also englishforum.ch, where you might find others in your position.

Finally, I can tell you the agencies I worked through if you like. One possibility is for them to handle you, and for them to invoice the agency handling the work. That way the liability is shifted. It will reduce your income somewhat, but might obviate the necessity to use a UK ltd.

[Mark Allen]

I’m sure you don’t need the right to work in the UK, but the UK agency may well insist on a UK ltd which would complicate matters with foreign payroll etc. Not insurmountable but a hassle.

Agreed. So, I created a Limited company last week directly through the Companies House, after speaking with one of their advisers. But the UK agency is continuing to baulk at writing me a contract.

I will speak with the project company and see, plus I put out an email to a solicitor I know for a 'friendly' answer to this same question. If she thinks it's necessary, I'll pay her some money to do more officially. But for now, I am trying to keep my costs low. If it all goes to nothing, I do not want to have spent a thousand bucks.

So, the help up here has been great, and I really appreciate it. Many good points.

But still something more concrete, or even a link to a web page or doc which could answer the question.

Thanks again,
Mark

[stek]

I’m sure you don’t need the right to work in the UK, but the UK agency may well insist on a UK ltd which would complicate matters with foreign payroll etc. Not insurmountable but a hassle.

[Mark Allen]

No. It's probably just part of their standard template and they either forgot to take it out or doesn't understand why it is there in the first place.

Yes, that is what I think, also. It has happened once with a Netherlands agency for a similar project; NL-based project (but huge international company), and every non-Dutch could work from home, wherever home was. So, I could work from where I wanted.

Being non-Dutch-based, I paid a tax attorney to go through the contract and say what was not kosher for the Swiss tax laws, and made some small changes. Sent it back to the agency, and a few small word changes here and there, and it was done. Everyone was happy and all of us were totally legal. Worked to the end of the project in 2017.

So, this leads me to believe the UK agency is not so smart, or . . . they just do not want to take the trouble to make these changes, which is strange because I am the first to be hired for the project.

But again, I am getting very good information here and sincerely appreciate all the responses.

I just need to know : can I sign a UK contract and work from home outside the UK, without the need for a "right to work" visa?

Thanks.

[Mark Allen]

It's kind of relevant because if you had you would, at least till Brexit, not to have had to worry about it. (And you could give up US citizenship and be able to open a bank account with Raiffeisen.. ).

Back in the early 2000s, I had people who regularly came from Hungary (before it was in the EU) for such purposes. They were on occasion stopped by immigration and questioned. Just something to be aware of.

With sincere respect, whether or not I got Swiss citizenship years ago or will do so in the future is not at all relevant to my situation, nor the question I am asking now. And as for the banking connection, I have worked in all the main Swiss banks, in many Swiss and German companies all over Switzerland and can open a bank account in any Swiss bank I desire. Raiffeisen is good bank and there is one in our village.

But this takes away from my question: does UK laws require me to have a "right to work" visa if I am working from Switzerland?

Simple question. If there are conditions, please let me know what they are and if needed, I will ask for more detail.

Many thanks for all your assistance.

[m0n1k3r]

Hello,

I have been offered a "UK based" contract from a UK agency for an IT company I know well. I worked for them before in another EU country.

Currently, I am *resident* in Switzerland and have a Swiss company. But I am not a Swiss national, only married to a Swiss national.

Now, they have a project with a UK customer (international, too) and the agency they use says the "UK-based" contract they have requires that I have a "right to work" in the UK visa. But I will not live or work in the UK, besides some few days a month for meetings.

Do I really need a visa to do this contract, even if I will never live there, only visit a few times?

No. It's probably just part of their standard template and they either forgot to take it out or doesn't understand why it is there in the first place.

[NotAllThere]

...
>> And why haven't you gone through facilitated naturalisation after all this time?

- That is personal and not relevant...

It's kind of relevant because if you had you would, at least till Brexit, not to have had to worry about it. (And you could give up US citizenship and be able to open a bank account with Raiffeisen.. ).

Back in the early 2000s, I had people who regularly came from Hungary (before it was in the EU) for such purposes. They were on occasion stopped by immigration and questioned. Just something to be aware of.

[Mark Allen]

Many thanks for your reply.

>> If you are only attending business meetings, then you shouldn't need a work visa. But you may need a visa to enter the country as you don't have an EU passport, and the UK isn't in Schengen.

- I hold an American passport, which is on the list of approved countries which are not required to have a visa for short-term visits. This is very normal.

>> How do you have a UK company if you've no right to be in the UK?

- Because I have an apartment there, so with that address I can start a UK company. I checked this with the Companies House.

>> And why haven't you gone through facilitated naturalisation after all this time?

- That is personal and not relevant.

Is there anything else I can provide to assist?

Many thanks.

[NotAllThere]

If you are only attending business meetings, then you shouldn't need a work visa. But you may need a visa to enter the country as you don't have an EU passport, and the UK isn't in Schengen.

How do you have a UK company if you've no right to be in the UK?

And why haven't you gone through facilitated naturalisation after all this time?