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Previously on "Depreciation of IT hardware reducing balance?"

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  • Maslins
    replied
    I'm not saying straight line is aggressive, but it seems your primary concern is that your assets are still showing a higher NBV when you want it to be (closer to) £nil. A more aggressive depreciation policy would be one that reduced the NBV quicker.

    I don't anticipate for one second that the accountant is using reducing balance depreciation policy as a means of keeping you as a client longer. Clients can leave/close regardless of whether assets have a NBV or not.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jcochr
    replied
    straight line is aggressive depreciation?

    Originally posted by Maslins View Post
    Bit confused by this comment.

    If disposing it and having a loss on disposal would make your company insolvent, then presumably if you'd had a more aggressive depreciation policy it would have been the same?

    Regardless, it still seems to me that assuming this is just standard contractor fixed assets (ie a laptop and maybe a mobile), then presumably the second hand value is hundreds rather than thousands...in which case it should be fairly trivial in the grand scheme of things and not something to get too worked up about.
    Is that a question? The accountant leaves the assets on the books for longer for little benefit. Straight line is more predictable with less admin at the end. I don't think the issue is all that complicated but seems to be very difficult to communicate and this accountant is being deliberately unable to understand simple requests. If you don't depreciate in a straight line way then you get left with assets forever on the books. It is probably helpful for accountants who want to keep clients but not good for Directors.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jcochr
    replied
    dividends and director loan connection to write-off of assets

    Yes but this year the accountant is saying the following: Please note that due to the loss of the disposal you will have overpaid your dividends as there is not enough profit in the company to pay these. There is now a director loan that will need to be paid back.

    Originally posted by Darren at DynamoAccounts View Post
    Any balancing charges are calculated on the tax WDV (Written down value) which is shown on the tax computations rather than the accounts. The value in the accounts is not the same as the tax WDV. In essence, the tax WDV will be £nil in any case as the assets are likely to have been fully claimed in the first year of purchase.

    Leave a comment:


  • northernladuk
    replied
    Originally posted by WordIsBond View Post
    Some guys put comments in their code before the line of code they are referencing, so you know what is coming next.

    Others put it after the code to explain what they just did. I think that's a stupid way to go, but I'm able to work with it.
    Typical coders...so one dimensional.

    Leave a comment:


  • WordIsBond
    replied
    Some guys put comments in their code before the line of code they are referencing, so you know what is coming next.
    Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
    Any chance you can quote first and THEN write your response. It's very hard to understand the context with the quote after.
    Others put it after the code to explain what they just did. I think that's a stupid way to go, but I'm able to work with it.

    Leave a comment:


  • northernladuk
    replied
    Originally posted by Jcochr View Post
    Yes but this year the accountant is saying the following: Please note that due to the loss of the disposal you will have overpaid your dividends as there is not enough profit in the company to pay these. There is now a director loan of £2,152.42 that will need to be paid back.
    Any chance you can quote first and THEN write your response. It's very hard to understand the context with the quote after.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jcochr
    replied
    Yes but this year the accountant is saying the following: Please note that due to the loss of the disposal you will have overpaid your dividends as there is not enough profit in the company to pay these. There is now a director loan that will need to be paid back.


    Originally posted by Darren at DynamoAccounts View Post
    Any balancing charges are calculated on the tax WDV (Written down value) which is shown on the tax computations rather than the accounts. The value in the accounts is not the same as the tax WDV. In essence, the tax WDV will be £nil in any case as the assets are likely to have been fully claimed in the first year of purchase.
    Last edited by Jcochr; 2 March 2017, 11:38.

    Leave a comment:


  • Maslins
    replied
    Originally posted by Jcochr View Post
    I was thinking that I will keep the company open until the asset has depreciated but that it would be better if the depreciation followed a straight line approach. If I write-off the asset this year then I have to take a reduction in profits and then I have to pay back dividends. If I wait till next year and the asset depreciates then I can avoid this. IMO
    Bit confused by this comment.

    If disposing it and having a loss on disposal would make your company insolvent, then presumably if you'd had a more aggressive depreciation policy it would have been the same?

    Regardless, it still seems to me that assuming this is just standard contractor fixed assets (ie a laptop and maybe a mobile), then presumably the second hand value is hundreds rather than thousands...in which case it should be fairly trivial in the grand scheme of things and not something to get too worked up about.

    Leave a comment:


  • Darren at Fox-Bartfield
    replied
    Assets

    Originally posted by Jcochr View Post
    If I close the company next year, and I can show the assets have completely depreciated and I have no profits or dividends for that year then I was hoping to avoid paying any balancing charges...
    Any balancing charges are calculated on the tax WDV (Written down value) which is shown on the tax computations rather than the accounts. The value in the accounts is not the same as the tax WDV. In essence, the tax WDV will be £nil in any case as the assets are likely to have been fully claimed in the first year of purchase.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jcochr
    replied
    looking to close

    I think that I may close next year or may start trading again. If I close in the future and the value of the assets has reduced properly then there are less balancing payments when the assets are disposed of. If they have depreciated to zero then perhaps this will be easier to do.

    Originally posted by Maslins View Post
    Two thoughts:

    1) whilst yes, it's strictly the directors who should basically choose everything, the accountant can make recommendations. It may be that this recommendation is to make their life easier (ie that's just how they do it)...but then it can be a bit of a game of chicken. Maybe if you push them hard enough they'll do it straight line, maybe they won't. If they don't, will you suck it up, or will you move firm.

    From our perspective we're the other way. Basically FreeAgent does things straight line, so if hypothetically a client really wanted it done reducing balance, every year we'd need to manually remove the straight line depreciation, do our own calculations, and manually enter them. In practice that's more effort than it's worth, and if a client was insistent, then they'd end up looking for another accountancy firm and/or bookkeeping packages.

    Yes, the customer's always right, but also bear in mind if a customer is doing what the supplier considers to be ridiculous and makes them not commercially viable to retain as a customer, the supplier may tell them where to go. Whether or not you're bothered about that risk is up to you. A case of picking your battles I guess.

    2) Does it matter?! If you're looking to close, then the depreciation policy to date is basically irrelevant. If any fixed assets do realistically have a market value, that's what you should be paying the company for them (or of course sell to an independent third party via eBay/whatever) and there'll be a gain/loss on disposal, which will basically overwrite and depreciation. It may be that the assets realistically have a negligible value, in which case you'll just scrap them. From an accounting perspective, this means a loss on disposal of whatever the NBV was. So again, depreciation to that point becomes irrelevant, a higher/lower depreciation policy just means you have a lower/higher loss on disposal.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jcochr
    replied
    balancing charges

    If I close the company next year, and I can show the assets have completely depreciated and I have no profits or dividends for that year then I was hoping to avoid paying any balancing charges...

    Originally posted by Patrick@Intouch View Post
    The decision on depreciation is yours. As the director of the company it is your responsibility to decide how quickly those assets are likely to lose value and the depreciation policy should reflect that.

    If you are looking to purchase assets from your company as part of the closure process then you would need to consider an approximate market value of those assets which may not be equal or even similar to the value declared in the accounts.

    It may also be necessary to consider balancing charges when disposing of assets and any balancing charges would be calculated by reference to the WDV of the assets for capital gains purposes versus the value realised on disposal.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jcochr
    replied
    straight line

    I think FreeAgent is more sensible when most modern assets depreciate very quickly and become worthless. Reducing balance leaves you with always having to dispose of assets. I can't imagine that is helpful from an admin point of view. I am not trading and have stopped the contract. This is the last year end so I don't have much bargaining power. I hoped that they could do it manually and apply a correction. It is now over 3 years old so would have depreciated to almost zero under most straight line rates.

    Originally posted by Maslins View Post
    Two thoughts:

    1) whilst yes, it's strictly the directors who should basically choose everything, the accountant can make recommendations. It may be that this recommendation is to make their life easier (ie that's just how they do it)...but then it can be a bit of a game of chicken. Maybe if you push them hard enough they'll do it straight line, maybe they won't. If they don't, will you suck it up, or will you move firm.

    From our perspective we're the other way. Basically FreeAgent does things straight line, so if hypothetically a client really wanted it done reducing balance, every year we'd need to manually remove the straight line depreciation, do our own calculations, and manually enter them. In practice that's more effort than it's worth, and if a client was insistent, then they'd end up looking for another accountancy firm and/or bookkeeping packages.

    Yes, the customer's always right, but also bear in mind if a customer is doing what the supplier considers to be ridiculous and makes them not commercially viable to retain as a customer, the supplier may tell them where to go. Whether or not you're bothered about that risk is up to you. A case of picking your battles I guess.

    2) Does it matter?! If you're looking to close, then the depreciation policy to date is basically irrelevant. If any fixed assets do realistically have a market value, that's what you should be paying the company for them (or of course sell to an independent third party via eBay/whatever) and there'll be a gain/loss on disposal, which will basically overwrite and depreciation. It may be that the assets realistically have a negligible value, in which case you'll just scrap them. From an accounting perspective, this means a loss on disposal of whatever the NBV was. So again, depreciation to that point becomes irrelevant, a higher/lower depreciation policy just means you have a lower/higher loss on disposal.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jcochr
    replied
    Reasoning

    Originally posted by Darren at DynamoAccounts View Post
    What's their reasoning behind the depreciation policy? This is the decision of the directors and the accountants are there to advise as RonBW says. Do you have a significant level of kit?
    I think their reasoning is just that they always apply this depreciation but it does not make sense when they have a separate section for IT assets. I only have a couple of computers but with reducing balance they stay of value for a great deal of time. I was thinking that I will keep the company open until the asset has depreciated but that it would be better if the depreciation followed a straight line approach. If I write-off the asset this year then I have to take a reduction in profits and then I have to pay back dividends. If I wait till next year and the asset depreciates then I can avoid this. IMO

    Leave a comment:


  • Maslins
    replied
    Two thoughts:

    1) whilst yes, it's strictly the directors who should basically choose everything, the accountant can make recommendations. It may be that this recommendation is to make their life easier (ie that's just how they do it)...but then it can be a bit of a game of chicken. Maybe if you push them hard enough they'll do it straight line, maybe they won't. If they don't, will you suck it up, or will you move firm.

    From our perspective we're the other way. Basically FreeAgent does things straight line, so if hypothetically a client really wanted it done reducing balance, every year we'd need to manually remove the straight line depreciation, do our own calculations, and manually enter them. In practice that's more effort than it's worth, and if a client was insistent, then they'd end up looking for another accountancy firm and/or bookkeeping packages.

    Yes, the customer's always right, but also bear in mind if a customer is doing what the supplier considers to be ridiculous and makes them not commercially viable to retain as a customer, the supplier may tell them where to go. Whether or not you're bothered about that risk is up to you. A case of picking your battles I guess.

    2) Does it matter?! If you're looking to close, then the depreciation policy to date is basically irrelevant. If any fixed assets do realistically have a market value, that's what you should be paying the company for them (or of course sell to an independent third party via eBay/whatever) and there'll be a gain/loss on disposal, which will basically overwrite and depreciation. It may be that the assets realistically have a negligible value, in which case you'll just scrap them. From an accounting perspective, this means a loss on disposal of whatever the NBV was. So again, depreciation to that point becomes irrelevant, a higher/lower depreciation policy just means you have a lower/higher loss on disposal.

    Leave a comment:


  • Patrick@Intouch
    replied
    The decision on depreciation is yours. As the director of the company it is your responsibility to decide how quickly those assets are likely to lose value and the depreciation policy should reflect that.

    If you are looking to purchase assets from your company as part of the closure process then you would need to consider an approximate market value of those assets which may not be equal or even similar to the value declared in the accounts.

    It may also be necessary to consider balancing charges when disposing of assets and any balancing charges would be calculated by reference to the WDV of the assets for capital gains purposes versus the value realised on disposal.

    Leave a comment:

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