Reply to: Remote working and IR35

[LondonManc]

Agile projects are like everything else you can choose what you in particular do or you can be micromanaged.

Really? I saw them as more adaptive and therefore more fluid in terms of direction, i.e. not necessarily compatible with a statement of work. Does a contract and its working practices have to be different to reflect this?

[SueEllen]

You can be supervised, directed and controlled remotely (I wonder how remote controls got their name?)

It's about the work you do and the method in which you deliver it.

A clearly-defined end result with a delivery date but with no indication about how you are get to it and you are left to your own devices to deliver it is fairly bulletproof.

I'd be interested to see how agile projects stand up to the SDC test.

Agile projects are like everything else you can choose what you in particular do or you can be micromanaged.

[LondonManc]

You can be supervised, directed and controlled remotely (I wonder how remote controls got their name?)

It's about the work you do and the method in which you deliver it.

A clearly-defined end result with a delivery date but with no indication about how you are get to it and you are left to your own devices to deliver it is fairly bulletproof.

I'd be interested to see how agile projects stand up to the SDC test.

[WordIsBond]

working remotely is a good anti SDC measure

Sure.

as by default you are working how and when suits you, therefore free of any S,D or C.

Wrong.

Work from home makes it a little harder to prove you are under SDC, and since SDC is often a fuzzy area which isn't entirely clear, it's one more bit of fuzz on your side of the argument. Proves nothing, probably helps a little bit.

I was just wondering if there is a general rule of thumb or even a precedent set as to what is a 'safe' amount to be considered a silver bullet?

The safe amount that guarantees you'll never lose an IR35 case is 100%, but it has nothing to do with WFH. If you operate 100% of your contracts within IR35, you'll never lose. The other is 0%. Never have any contracts, you'll never lose an IR35 case.

[missinggreenfields]

In that case, I assume you have a very poorly worded contract that doesn't reflect the reality of the situation, and you're unwilling to risk it. Odd scenario.

Or a controlling person under the Alexander review.

[SlipTheJab]

...
"Why did you leave site without my permission?"

"Eh?"

"You left site without my permission, what if we'd had a Sev. 1?" (I was on project work anyway, shows what a good manager he was)

"My daughter was ill, taken away in an ambulance"

"I'm not interested in your excuses"

At that point I would have told him to funk off, collected my belongings and keyed his car on the way out...

[jamesbrown]

I'm inside IR35, 100% WFH and not under any discernible SDC.

In that case, I assume you have a very poorly worded contract that doesn't reflect the reality of the situation, and you're unwilling to risk it. Odd scenario.

[LondonManc]

I'm inside IR35, 100% WFH and not under any discernible SDC.

So you've been ordered not to go on site and upset people?
You and your reputation

[VectraMan]

I'm inside IR35, 100% WFH and not under any discernible SDC.

[stek]

Thats nuts. What if you went for a dump?

Another one was he'd look though our calendars, for conf calls, silently join and listen, and after a while message you and say 'You don't need to be on that call'.....

What a chunt!

The one that got me was when I got a call from school saying by daughter was ill and could I come and collect her. I let my colleague know what was going on and he of course said fine, sort you daughter out. Then school called and said they'd called an ambulance for her so that was it, I was out the door rapido.

Anyway, as it happens all the happened was she'd been watching her best friend (who's diabetic) inject herself and she passed out on seeing it. School overreaction but I didn't know that.

Next day boss man comes in (I was based in Leeds, him Glasgow, came to Leeds every so often) calls me into an office.

"Why did you leave site without my permission?"

"Eh?"

"You left site without my permission, what if we'd had a Sev. 1?" (I was on project work anyway, shows what a good manager he was)

"My daughter was ill, taken away in an ambulance"

"I'm not interested in your excuses"

Mental switch flicks in my head - I'm leaving.....

"You've not got kids have you, John?"

"That's nothing to do with it"

One month later I was away, contracting again after a one year permie-experiment, never again....

Wasn't just me, we were only a team of four, one of the Windows lads called him a '****' as loudly as possible in office in front of everyone, then they became bessie mates!

Then we starting a bollocking league, 1 point for phone, email or messenger bollocking, 3 for being taken into a corner for a 'quiet word' and the full 6 points for being ushered into a room for a full-on bollocking.

[LondonManc]

This... From what I can see we don't even know the exact details of what SDC is to argue the finer points. That said IMO WFH is flexibility around where to do the job and has no bearing on SDC. You work will still be monitored, distributed to you with an expectation of it back in some agreeable format in a timescale dictated by you which is all SDC.

WFH 'might' be part of the bigger picture of how you work which might not be SDC but on it's own it's not IMO

[TheBA]

Thats nuts. What if you went for a dump?

I think there's an emoji for that

[psychocandy]

Not sure about that, in one permie role I had, we worked in Leeds, manager worked in Glasgow, and he was totally micro-managing* us over the messenger system we had there (basically Jabber). Only lasted a year there, had enough! Went back contracting.

*despite his first words being "I don't believe in micro-management, guys..."

He even wanted us to update our messenger status every 15 mins with a comment on what we were working on at that time.

So you can be supervised remotely....

Thats nuts. What if you went for a dump?

[northernladuk]

I can't see how remote working has any effect on SDC at all.

This... From what I can see we don't even know the exact details of what SDC is to argue the finer points. That said IMO WFH is flexibility around where to do the job and has no bearing on SDC. You work will still be monitored, distributed to you with an expectation of it back in some agreeable format in a timescale dictated by you which is all SDC.

WFH 'might' be part of the bigger picture of how you work which might not be SDC but on it's own it's not IMO

[jamesbrown]

The test is whether there is a sufficient degree of control over the manner in which (i.e. how) you deliver the services, not whether you WFH. There may well be a relationship between the two - generally speaking, there will be a connection - but a given degree of WFH doesn't necessarily imply a lack of SDC or the right thereof (and remember the "SDC test" remains, er, untested beyond what we know about control).