Reply to: Spreadsheet vs Portal: the ultimate smackdown

[Contreras]

Just a quick point regarding security and spreadsheets. I exchange bookkeeping spreadsheets with the accountant via email, unencrypted. So there is zero confidentiality. Ditto bank statements. It is a bit surprising they don't offer even an https upload service, but there it is.

Password protected spreadsheet is better than nothing. It should be standard practice for any file emailing given how easy it is to select the wrong recipient. In fact I would still do that for a https file upload.

You can take bets on which is more secure overall, online portal vs. file based, until the worse happens.

[unixman]

Just a quick point regarding security and spreadsheets. I exchange bookkeeping spreadsheets with the accountant via email, unencrypted. So there is zero confidentiality. Ditto bank statements. It is a bit surprising they don't offer even an https upload service, but there it is.

Good replies all, thanks.

[ContrataxLtd]

Whilst I sort of agree, it's still a big pain.

Eg even my beloved FreeAgent (so I'm not seen to be biased here) if you want to leave to move to another package, it's not ideal. You can download all transactions, but they export into this mammoth Excel file. Not easy to find the info you need, or to import into another package.

So whilst you might technically have the data, if you move from one package to another you aren't able to easily see comparatives going back a few years like you can if you stick with the same package.

It's easier to stick with the same software package and swap accountant than it is to stick with the same accountant and swap software package. Swapping both is of course worst of both worlds in terms of hassle.

That's just how I'd have put it!

Martin

Contratax Ltd

[Maslins]

I don't think this is much the case any more - software tie-in is a bit of a 1990s tactic. Any system worth its salt should let people download their data and leave.

Whilst I sort of agree, it's still a big pain.

Eg even my beloved FreeAgent (so I'm not seen to be biased here) if you want to leave to move to another package, it's not ideal. You can download all transactions, but they export into this mammoth Excel file. Not easy to find the info you need, or to import into another package.

So whilst you might technically have the data, if you move from one package to another you aren't able to easily see comparatives going back a few years like you can if you stick with the same package.

It's easier to stick with the same software package and swap accountant than it is to stick with the same accountant and swap software package. Swapping both is of course worst of both worlds in terms of hassle.

[JonNorris@Crunch]

I believe Crunch's platform is bespoke but I'm sure Jon@Crunch will be along to clarify.

It is - the development team sit right above my head!

2) It gives a greater tie in to the client, they are using the firms software so it's harder for them to move accountant which means they will probably retain more clients even when some may be unhappy as there is an extra hurdle to climb in moving.

I don't think this is much the case any more - software tie-in is a bit of a 1990s tactic. Any system worth its salt should let people download their data and leave.

3) Reporting/API interface can be better used so that the software flows directly into accounting/tax software with little staff interference. Thus things become more automated and cost efficient.

This is the main advantage for us - reduces manual work hugely. Also means we can do fun stuff like this:

I can also run a trial version of my annual accounts at any point during the year.

[Maslins]

The push towards portals comes from the accountants, not contractors, according to what I have seen so far.

I'm not convinced that's true, imagine it's more 50:50.

Certainly think it's fair to say FreeAgent took off initially at least by appealing to the end users, NOT to accountants. Accountants (like us) then joined the party later because there were lots of end users who loved the software but needed help.

In other situations (eg JSA) they had all their customers using one thing, then the accountant made the decision to push them all onto FreeAgent later.

If you're happy with a spreadsheet, you'll find a firm happy to help you based on that, no different to if you wanted to use FreeAgent/some other online portal. The choice is yours...I guess you just need to accept the fact that if your key priority is how you'll enter/track the data, you need to then pick an accountant that's happy to work with that method.

[ContrataxLtd]

Is Crunch a bespoke platform? Intouch is, so it NW (Vantage).

I like the idea of using a standard tool like Freeagent. The big accountancy companies prefer their own bespoke written stuff. Allows them to capture that income I suppose.

Hi Unixman

I believe Crunch's platform is bespoke but I'm sure Jon@Crunch will be along to clarify, I'm pretty sure InTouch & NW's platforms are bespoke too.

IMO there are three main reasons to go bespoke (from the firms POV):

1) The overall cost should, in theory, be cheaper than a standard online provider as there are no monthly subscription costs to pay for, just initial/ongoing development. The risk to the firm here is that big changes have to be made which are costly, but split out on a per client basis it's probably not too much with a decent critical mass.

2) It gives a greater tie in to the client, they are using the firms software so it's harder for them to move accountant which means they will probably retain more clients even when some may be unhappy as there is an extra hurdle to climb in moving.

3) Reporting/API interface can be better used so that the software flows directly into accounting/tax software with little staff interference. Thus things become more automated and cost efficient.

Obviously the 'smaller guys' like ourselves etc. choose to use tools like Freeagent because we don't have the initial capital available to develop/support something as good as Freeagent.

Personally, I'd go with an accountant that you get a good feel for and has the knowledge/skills to give you a great service rather than basing the decision on what software they have as software can always be changed.

HTH

Martin
Contratax Ltd

[northernladuk]

Is Crunch a bespoke platform? Intouch is, so it NW (Vantage).

I like the idea of using a standard tool like Freeagent. The big accountancy companies prefer their own bespoke written stuff. Allows them to capture that income I suppose.

I give up........

[unixman]

Is Crunch a bespoke platform? Intouch is, so it NW (Vantage).

I like the idea of using a standard tool like Freeagent. The big accountancy companies prefer their own bespoke written stuff. Allows them to capture that income I suppose.

[dingdong]

I use Crunch and find their portal great. I can easily review transactions from years ago, and can download transactions anytime I want to excel.
I can also run a trial version of my annual accounts at any point during the year.

I really don't see why anyone should have concerns about using the market leading portals like Crunch etc.

[TheFaQQer]

I've only used the InTouch portal, but you can download all your transactions through that and play with them to your heart's content

[unixman]

Re SJD, their stance has seemingly changed quite a bit. A few years ago they were banging the drum that it's all gimmicky fluff and the spreadsheet is all you need. This was technically correct, but in reality a lot of contractors like the gimmicky fluff, so started leaving SJD for firms which did use FreeAgent. SJD do now support FreeAgent users.

The push towards portals comes from the accountants, not contractors, according to what I have seen so far. Online toys are fine, but don't f**k with my books!

Calm down everybody that was not serious.

[unixman]

(sigh) again with the 'might' and assumptions that are wrong. Not all do.

"Hello, Police ?"
"Yes".
"unixman used the word "guess" and "might" in a forum discussion, and then he assumed something"
"Expect arrests."

[pr1]

My suggestion would be just pay on the company debit card. That way the dates and amounts can automatically be pulled through from a statement download/upload of live feed, and you just need to explain as "travel". Indeed if the narrative on the bank looks the same, FreeAgent will even automatically explain future purchases that look the same as "travel".

Alternatively if you want to pay privately and reclaim, you could enter one figure, (say) £200 for train tickets in month August. Provided somewhere you have the detail that that's actually made up of 20 £10 tickets or whatever.

agree but my bank (cater allen) limits me to 30 transactions per month before they start charging (70p per transaction) which is why I still do travel on personal card and claim it back - I could enter 1 figure but the minor OCD in me likes everything to align (date on ticket = date claimed, etc) so batching several into one claim would make my palms sticky

Float (possibly what you're talking about as additional app) might help you do that. Alternatively you can easily enough put in future dated invoices (marking as sent) together with expenses, then when looking at your P&L, change it from "year to date" to "2015/16 year" or whatever, which means it'll include months that are still in the future but in your accounting year.

aha - perfect - thanks!

[Maslins]

while I really like freeagent, and recommend it - it is not without some limitations compared to spreadsheets

it's hard to batch expenses - there's no easy way (that I've found) at the end of a month to import 20 train tickets all the same price/same description but different dates - this is easy on a spreadsheet

it's hard to project forward (again - prepared to be corrected) - expenses and invoices are only taken into consideration from the date they are for, which is fine and good for "up to date" accounts put you cant, for example, proejct the next 3 months of invoices and expenses and press a "pretend it's christmas 2015" button to see what cashflow position you'll be in, again, easy on a spreadsheet - the only way I've found to do this is to register (& pay) for another addon software for projections

My suggestion would be just pay on the company debit card. That way the dates and amounts can automatically be pulled through from a statement download/upload of live feed, and you just need to explain as "travel". Indeed if the narrative on the bank looks the same, FreeAgent will even automatically explain future purchases that look the same as "travel".

Alternatively if you want to pay privately and reclaim, you could enter one figure, (say) £200 for train tickets in month August. Provided somewhere you have the detail that that's actually made up of 20 £10 tickets or whatever.

Float (possibly what you're talking about as additional app) might help you do that. Alternatively you can easily enough put in future dated invoices (marking as sent) together with expenses, then when looking at your P&L, change it from "year to date" to "2015/16 year" or whatever, which means it'll include months that are still in the future but in your accounting year.

Freeagent sounds attractive. I guess (sorry NLUK!) it becomes an added cost however. Eg. an accountancy firm might offer £95 p/m for basic accounts, but when you add the £30 p/m for the software it is less of a bargain.

I am coming round to online packages, if they offer full visibility and reporting, so I can download the entirety of my accounts any time. It would be great to find a package/company that does that.

SJD page here puffing their spreadsheet and being a bit sniffy about online packages: . I have used their spreadsheet and it's not bad, despite being a bit buggy and having no version control.

As others have now said, many FreeAgent friendly practices will include the cost of FreeAgent in their fee.

Re SJD, their stance has seemingly changed quite a bit. A few years ago they were banging the drum that it's all gimmicky fluff and the spreadsheet is all you need. This was technically correct, but in reality a lot of contractors like the gimmicky fluff, so started leaving SJD for firms which did use FreeAgent. SJD do now support FreeAgent users.