Reply to: New side business: Legal aspects clarification

[northernladuk]

Issue most likely is you are possibly a bit of a dick and you piiss people off with your 'I am a bit of a dick' attitude? Maybe? You do come across as one, maybe you should look at some sort of charm school to appear not being being a bit of dick.

What are you trying to say lol...

[stek]

"Sounds like you're one of those people who just attract bother, my youngest brother is the same, whenever we go out we end up in a scrap. Me alone or with my other bro' - no bother.

To me your 'anecdotal happenstance' doesn't cut it with me, suggest you wind your neck in."

Ad hominem? Disappointing. Milkyway has raised an issue with the way things work, and I have highlighted the extent of the issue, and how damaging it can be to someone who in no way is causing any trouble. I am nothing like your brother. I am upset on this matter as a result of how things suddenly flipped on me while minding my own business, and am highlighting that the way things currently work can very easily happen to someone else.

"Would you like some vinegar and maybe some ketchup to go with that monumental chip?"

The flippancy of someone content in their own situation with no objective grasp of another perspective.

"Quite honestly if you consult a landlord with the sort of attitude..."

More incorrect presumptions. I was so apologetic to the landlord that his wife felt quite bad about the situation. Quite honestly, I'm surprised by the attitudes of fellow contractors, who I would expect to work together to ensure the best possible conditions lest the current system works against them at some point. I wouldn't expect the landlords around here to care, or HMRC, but I would've thought others might be interested in reducing any risk in their lives. Anyway, I'm not going to respond anymore. Good luck all.

Issue most likely is you are possibly a bit of a dick and you piiss people off with your 'I am a bit of a dick' attitude? Maybe? You do come across as one, maybe you should look at some sort of charm school to appear not being being a bit of dick.

[TykeMerc]

Oh look, here's a new scenario for CUK, new poster shows up, gets enraged over as soon as their scenario is treated as utterly trivial and then does a flounce. There's a fairly typical follow on scenario too.

[ConcurrencyOverload]

"Sounds like you're one of those people who just attract bother, my youngest brother is the same, whenever we go out we end up in a scrap. Me alone or with my other bro' - no bother.

To me your 'anecdotal happenstance' doesn't cut it with me, suggest you wind your neck in."

Ad hominem? Disappointing. Milkyway has raised an issue with the way things work, and I have highlighted the extent of the issue, and how damaging it can be to someone who in no way is causing any trouble. I am nothing like your brother. I am upset on this matter as a result of how things suddenly flipped on me while minding my own business, and am highlighting that the way things currently work can very easily happen to someone else.

"Would you like some vinegar and maybe some ketchup to go with that monumental chip?"

The flippancy of someone content in their own situation with no objective grasp of another perspective.

"Quite honestly if you consult a landlord with the sort of attitude..."

More incorrect presumptions. I was so apologetic to the landlord that his wife felt quite bad about the situation. Quite honestly, I'm surprised by the attitudes of fellow contractors, who I would expect to work together to ensure the best possible conditions lest the current system works against them at some point. I wouldn't expect the landlords around here to care, or HMRC, but I would've thought others might be interested in reducing any risk in their lives. Anyway, I'm not going to respond anymore. Good luck all.

[TykeMerc]

"This is bollocks. How does the landlord know what mail you receive? Does he stand in your hallway checking when the postman arrives?"

Yes, I have nothing better to do with my time than make up stories about the entwined relationship between landlords and HMRC at the expense of contractors. Surely you can conceive of people living in situations other than detached houses far removed from landlords who never visit the property? Whether or not a landlord sees your post is irrelevant - the legal situation does not depend on that, and we should not have to be working around it according to landlords' moods and behaviour.

"I've been renting since 2002 and have not had an issue ..."

Ok. And I've been contracting for two months, and I have had an issue. Again irrelevant - anecdotal happenstance doesn't cut it. Either limited companies are a risk to a landlord's property, in which case few of them should be willing to take the risk, or they're not a risk to the property, in which case the matter is only down to ability to pay, as with perms, not whether someone is doing business on the property. This matter is even worse than the hand wavy IR35. Well maybe you're in, wave hand, maybe you're out, wave hand, it depends on our mood on the day. As demonstrated in this thread by Milkyway having to explain the difference between registered address and ppob - common to threads on this subject, people aren't even aware of the difference. Of course they'll still give their opinion.

The ultimate answer to Milkyway's question, it seems, is that HMRC are thoughtlessly bureaucratic, and so you have to rent from a landlord who is willing to let you receive business post, and if you are switching to contracting mid tenancy contract be prepared to have to move.

Would you like some vinegar and maybe some ketchup to go with that monumental chip?

Most landlords won't give a flying fig if you get a bit of business mail at a rented address, that's even if they know it's being delivered there. That being said if they do care then they're perfectly entitled to set the rental conditions and you're entitled to feck off and rent elsewhere.
Quite honestly if you consult a landlord with the sort of attitude you display on here then I'd expect the landlord to tell you to get bent, I certainly would.

[stek]

"This is bollocks. How does the landlord know what mail you receive? Does he stand in your hallway checking when the postman arrives?"

Yes, I have nothing better to do with my time than make up stories about the entwined relationship between landlords and HMRC at the expense of contractors. Surely you can conceive of people living in situations other than detached houses far removed from landlords who never visit the property? Whether or not a landlord sees your post is irrelevant - the legal situation does not depend on that, and we should not have to be working around it according to landlords' moods and behaviour.

"I've been renting since 2002 and have not had an issue ..."

Ok. And I've been contracting for two months, and I have had an issue. Again irrelevant - anecdotal happenstance doesn't cut it. Either limited companies are a risk to a landlord's property, in which case few of them should be willing to take the risk, or they're not a risk to the property, in which case the matter is only down to ability to pay, as with perms, not whether someone is doing business on the property. This matter is even worse than the hand wavy IR35. Well maybe you're in, wave hand, maybe you're out, wave hand, it depends on our mood on the day. As demonstrated in this thread by Milkyway having to explain the difference between registered address and ppob - common to threads on this subject, people aren't even aware of the difference. Of course they'll still give their opinion.

The ultimate answer to Milkyway's question, it seems, is that HMRC are thoughtlessly bureaucratic, and so you have to rent from a landlord who is willing to let you receive business post, and if you are switching to contracting mid tenancy contract be prepared to have to move.

Sounds like you're one of those people who just attract bother, my youngest brother is the same, whenever we go out we end up in a scrap. Me alone or with my other bro' - no bother.

To me your 'anecdotal happenstance' doesn't cut it with me, suggest you wind your neck in.

[ConcurrencyOverload]

"This is bollocks. How does the landlord know what mail you receive? Does he stand in your hallway checking when the postman arrives?"

Yes, I have nothing better to do with my time than make up stories about the entwined relationship between landlords and HMRC at the expense of contractors. Surely you can conceive of people living in situations other than detached houses far removed from landlords who never visit the property? Whether or not a landlord sees your post is irrelevant - the legal situation does not depend on that, and we should not have to be working around it according to landlords' moods and behaviour.

"I've been renting since 2002 and have not had an issue ..."

Ok. And I've been contracting for two months, and I have had an issue. Again irrelevant - anecdotal happenstance doesn't cut it. Either limited companies are a risk to a landlord's property, in which case few of them should be willing to take the risk, or they're not a risk to the property, in which case the matter is only down to ability to pay, as with perms, not whether someone is doing business on the property. This matter is even worse than the hand wavy IR35. Well maybe you're in, wave hand, maybe you're out, wave hand, it depends on our mood on the day. As demonstrated in this thread by Milkyway having to explain the difference between registered address and ppob - common to threads on this subject, people aren't even aware of the difference. Of course they'll still give their opinion.

The ultimate answer to Milkyway's question, it seems, is that HMRC are thoughtlessly bureaucratic, and so you have to rent from a landlord who is willing to let you receive business post, and if you are switching to contracting mid tenancy contract be prepared to have to move.

[stek]

"It's up to you as an adult to talk to your landlord and explain what exactly you are doing."

You think I didn't? Your patronising suggestion is based on the premises that I'm a moron, that all landlords know what they're talking about, and are all reasonable. That's as absurd as this situation.

"HMRC and the bank haven't blundered as the company and you are not the same legal entity."

I wasn't referring to the varied addressing, I was referring to contractors/freelancers being at the mercy of landlords.

"There is also nothing stopping you using a close relation's address as your trading address."

You're doing nothing to improve the situation. The situation is that individuals are unable to independently and self-sufficiently be contractors and freelancers - ie that they are second rate citizens with fewer rights than landlords in relation to something that should have nothing to do with ones status of home ownership. Again an absurd premise that all contractors/freelancers have close family, or family at all. I can't believe I'm hearing these things. How does someones family have anything to do with a person's business arrangements? You speak of being an adult, then suggest falling back on one's parents.

"If you are organised the only actual post that will come are banking letters, one statement a month, and the occasional letter from HMRC."

Quantity has nothing to do with it. If the landlord doesn't want you receiving business related mail, then one letter is too many. I know from experience.

It will piss your landlord off as it did me which just goes to make the situation worse as landlords will clamp down even harder on having any kind of business relationships with their properties.

Worse than what? At best it's a crapshoot at the moment - crapshoot legislation - how is that acceptable? HMRC have to require landlords to allow tenants to get on with their business, or allow tenants to receive post elsewhere. Is that so difficult? That so much hassle can result from requiring an address is absurd. The government know everything about us, what need is there to require this address for communications?

This is bollocks. How does the landlord know what mail you receive? Does he stand in your hallway checking when the postman arrives?

I've been renting since 2002 and have not had an issue (four different houses) NW are my company's official address all I get is bank statements and stuff forwarded from NW.

In fact here at this address I get mail for all sort of previous businesses from previous occupants as well as personal.

I don't get it...

[meridian]

Your tenancy contract is a contract like any other. It's not up to HMRC to require landlords to allow business post to your home address, it's up to you as one party to a contract to discuss exactly what you are doing with the other party (the landlord) and come to an acceptable agreement.

If the running of your business is no more than doing a bit of bookkeeping and issuing invoices once a week or month, then confirm that with your landlord. Some are fine with it, some aren't, but you need to negotiate your side of the pitch.

Not sure why you're having difficulties getting rented accommodation as a contractor, I've been doing it for years and it's usually no more difficult than verifying your contract details to prove you can pay the rent.

[ConcurrencyOverload]

"It's up to you as an adult to talk to your landlord and explain what exactly you are doing."

You think I didn't? Your patronising suggestion is based on the premises that I'm a moron, that all landlords know what they're talking about, and are all reasonable. That's as absurd as this situation.

"HMRC and the bank haven't blundered as the company and you are not the same legal entity."

I wasn't referring to the varied addressing, I was referring to contractors/freelancers being at the mercy of landlords.

"There is also nothing stopping you using a close relation's address as your trading address."

You're doing nothing to improve the situation. The situation is that individuals are unable to independently and self-sufficiently be contractors and freelancers - ie that they are second rate citizens with fewer rights than landlords in relation to something that should have nothing to do with ones status of home ownership. Again an absurd premise that all contractors/freelancers have close family, or family at all. I can't believe I'm hearing these things. How does someones family have anything to do with a person's business arrangements? You speak of being an adult, then suggest falling back on one's parents.

"If you are organised the only actual post that will come are banking letters, one statement a month, and the occasional letter from HMRC."

Quantity has nothing to do with it. If the landlord doesn't want you receiving business related mail, then one letter is too many. I know from experience.

It will piss your landlord off as it did me which just goes to make the situation worse as landlords will clamp down even harder on having any kind of business relationships with their properties.

Worse than what? At best it's a crapshoot at the moment - crapshoot legislation - how is that acceptable? HMRC have to require landlords to allow tenants to get on with their business, or allow tenants to receive post elsewhere. Is that so difficult? That so much hassle can result from requiring an address is absurd. The government know everything about us, what need is there to require this address for communications?

[northernladuk]

It will piss your landlord off as it did me which just goes to make the situation worse as landlords will clamp down even harder on having any kind of business relationships with their properties.

[SueEllen]

HMRC and the bank haven't blundered as the company and you are not the same legal entity.

It's up to you as an adult to talk to your landlord and explain what exactly you are doing.

There is also nothing stopping you using a close relation's address as your trading address.

If you are organised the only actual post that will come are banking letters, one statement a month, and the occasional letter from HMRC. VAT reminders can be sent by email and most of the rest of HMRC paper work can be sent direct to your accountant if they are registered as your agent.

[ConcurrencyOverload]

Hi Milkyway,

The worrying thing is that you seem to be the only person who is aware of this absurd situation. I've been contracting as a software dev for two months and have just been evicted. My ltd company is registered at my accountants', but as only you and HMRC seem to be aware, our residential address is required as our principal place of business (PPOB), which leaves us to the whims of landlords. How is it that no one else is aware of these requirements? How is it that we are subject by law to the various psychologies of landlords. This is utterly ridiculous and unacceptable.

My landlord found post addressed to my company - HMRC variously addresses post to both me personally and my company. My business bank does too. There are director service address services which will receive and forward mail addressed to me personally, but not if they're addressed to my company. I would have been fine if HMRC and the bank stuck to addressing me by name. As with you I had no customers at my residence, nor did I even work there as when I'm not at a customer's office I prefer coffee shops to avoid cabin fever.

I'm now in the situation of trying to find accommodation as a contractor which again is another level of hell compared to permanent employees. The amount of bureaucracy, and torment I've been through in the last two months means that I would never recommend contracting/freelancing/etc to anyone who does not already own a property.

HMRC have blundered this outright. I'm about to look at serviced offices, but you've pointed out that HMRC won't accept these. Looks like it's back to permanent for me. The UK can forget about an entrepreneurial society with this sort of clumsy incompetence. In the meantime I'm living in AirBnB flats until I can get a flat as a second rate citizen, and my post is still going to my old landlord. I hope it really pisses him off. I'm dumbfounded and shattered.

[SarahL2012]

Rented for 6 months last year. Landlord was happy for property to be used as correspondence address (inc VAT) but not registered address. Have you got the kind of landlord you could actually have a sensible conversation with?

[VectraMan]

You're worrying over nothing. As said they don't want you opening a shop or hiring staff or whatever, but all you're really doing is working at home and that's unlikely to be an issue even if they do find out, which they won't.

I've used my rented house as registered office and trading address for VAT or whatever. All that really means is that's where they send the couple of letters a year to, and your mail is your business.