Reply to: Crunch Online Accounting

[Maslins]

Maybe people from other companies could weigh in - InTough/SJD/NW/etc - on a normal balance? How many clients one accountant can handle, and so on?

I don't mind divulging our figures. We've just taken on our 5th employee. 2 qualifieds, one in 3rd year of study, one 2nd, one just started. This is probably a bit more than we need for our current Maslins client level (a little over 300), but that's partly as many of you will know we also run MVL Online so staff assist with work there too.

I would agree with some of the more realistic comments above that a reasonable amount of the work done is not rocket science, so there shouldn't be any shame in firms having quite a few unqualifieds. As long as they're not answering tricky questions in their early days, it should be fine. Also, without trainees, there'd never be any more qualified people, we all have to start somewhere.

As to the right balance? Well, each firm will decide (and to some extent their clients might with their feet). Better systems/staff means you can cope with more clients per staff member.

Also bear in mind as Crunch build their own software, a lot of the staff will presumably be IT techies, whereas a firm like us who uses FreeAgent doesn't have that need, so inevitably we'll have a higher % of staff as accountants than they will.

[yasockie]

For what it's worth, I have tried Crunch for a while and while it wasn't the best fit for my micro multi-national empire, it's really great for your run of the mill Mon-Fri contractor - all your expenses, invoices, taxes, divis etc in one place.
I'm pretty sure 90% of contractors would find it a good fit and good value for money.

[ContrataxLtd]

Isn't this rather the norm? A local accountancy firm with one or two partners might service hundreds of businesses. The majority of the work doesn't need a chartered accountant any more than most of the work in a solicitor's practice is done by the solicitor himself.

As long as there are enough proper accountants, it is fine - that you can reach one with a query in a timely manner and they don't abdicate responsibility to less qualified staff and get lazy.

Maybe people from other companies could weigh in - InTough/SJD/NW/etc - on a normal balance? How many clients one accountant can handle, and so on?

Hi d000hg

To give you my perspective on this (from a small contractor specialist), we only have qualified accountants here as that's how we've chosen to operate. I appreciate this is overkill compared to some of the larger players but we are quite happy with the setup. Mainly because we are quite small and all heavily involved in the practice as a whole so don't need various layers of management, admin assistants etc. We would have a maximum of 100 - 120 clients per accountant.

I know a lot of the bigger players operate different to this and can happily cope with fewer qualified accountants compared to the number of clients they have but I'll leave them to comment on their setups.

Hope this helps

Martin
Contratax Ltd

[TheFaQQer]

Wow - there seems to be lots of people criticising Crunch (am guessing half work for competing companies)

Apart from Craig's post number 21, I don't see any criticism coming from other accountants.

[d000hg]

Not sure it is a beating. But the comments dont position Crunch as an accountancy practice which is where I would want to put my tax affairs.

- "Team here is 150+ and growing, vast majority being client-facing Account Managers and Accountants"

- "we have 19 accountants at the moment, running the gamut from apprentice to fully qualified".

-"Being as specific as I can be without touring the office with a pad of paper asking for everyone's qualifications. They're all on LinkedIn if you're desperate to find out".

So actually of the total staff probably maybe 10% will have a level of accountancy qualification although this hasnt been clarified and not sure how many fully qualified.

Not saying that this is bad in any way especially if the product delivers like people say and this ratio maybe the norm - just positions Crunch as a software house or sales company more than an accountancy practice?

Isn't this rather the norm? A local accountancy firm with one or two partners might service hundreds of businesses. The majority of the work doesn't need a chartered accountant any more than most of the work in a solicitor's practice is done by the solicitor himself.

As long as there are enough proper accountants, it is fine - that you can reach one with a query in a timely manner and they don't abdicate responsibility to less qualified staff and get lazy.

Maybe people from other companies could weigh in - InTough/SJD/NW/etc - on a normal balance? How many clients one accountant can handle, and so on?

[ContrataxLtd]

Not sure it is a beating. But the comments dont position Crunch as an accountancy practice which is where I would want to put my tax affairs.

- "Team here is 150+ and growing, vast majority being client-facing Account Managers and Accountants"

- "we have 19 accountants at the moment, running the gamut from apprentice to fully qualified".

-"Being as specific as I can be without touring the office with a pad of paper asking for everyone's qualifications. They're all on LinkedIn if you're desperate to find out".

So actually of the total staff probably maybe 10% will have a level of accountancy qualification although this hasnt been clarified and not sure how many fully qualified.

Not saying that this is bad in any way especially if the product delivers like people say and this ratio maybe the norm - just positions Crunch as a software house or sales company more than an accountancy practice?

I can see why Crunch aren't appearing in the best light with those comments but as you say, it's not necessarily a bad setup as I'm sure Crunch have hundreds (if not thousands?) of happy contractors on their books. I would imagine the 150+ staff aren't all there to deliver the accountancy services to contractors either? I know they just struck some sort of deal to do accounts for a large number of taxi drivers using their software so possibly some of the more junior staff can sort that side out easily too?

At the end of the day, I guess it comes down to who and what you want to deal with. Some people want a fully qualified accountant dealing with everything, some people are happy provided the job is done right regardless of who does it. Personally, I think a lot of the 'bigger' players in the market could be seen as software houses/sales companies but they still have to deliver to retain the clients.

Just my 2cents!

Martin
Contratax Ltd

[ian2012]

Wow - there seems to be lots of people criticising Crunch (am guessing half work for competing companies)

I've been using Crunch for past 3 years and think the service is great (and obviously lots of other contractors do given its popularity)

The software is easy to use, I like being in control and having visibility of everything and I've always had super fast responses to any queries (including chatting to fully qualified accountants on the phone!)

I've recommended Crunch to a number of other colleagues and they've all found it better than their existing accountant or service

[saptastic]

Crunch (or maybe Jon Norris @ Crunch in particular) seems to be taking a bit of a beating in this thread!

Out of interest Waldorf, what do you class as 'a member of a recognised accountants body' and 'one of the Mickey Mouse, pretend bodies'?

Cheers

Martin
Contratax Ltd

Not sure it is a beating. But the comments dont position Crunch as an accountancy practice which is where I would want to put my tax affairs.

- "Team here is 150+ and growing, vast majority being client-facing Account Managers and Accountants"

- "we have 19 accountants at the moment, running the gamut from apprentice to fully qualified".

-"Being as specific as I can be without touring the office with a pad of paper asking for everyone's qualifications. They're all on LinkedIn if you're desperate to find out".

So actually of the total staff probably maybe 10% will have a level of accountancy qualification although this hasnt been clarified and not sure how many fully qualified.

Not saying that this is bad in any way especially if the product delivers like people say and this ratio maybe the norm - just positions Crunch as a software house or sales company more than an accountancy practice?

[JonNorris@Crunch]

Yeah, it's leaning towards the far end of "professional discussion"

I did mention my consultation fee, didn't I?

[d000hg]

Crunch (or maybe Jon Norris @ Crunch in particular) seems to be taking a bit of a beating in this thread!

Yeah, it's leaning towards the far end of "professional discussion"

[ContrataxLtd]

Strange that you don't know, as the 'spokesman' for Crunch I would have thought you would know. I would guess that you actually employ very few qualified accountants, i.e. who have finished and passed all their exams and been accepted as a member of a recognised accountants body, not one of the Mickey Mouse, pretend bodies.

Crunch (or maybe Jon Norris @ Crunch in particular) seems to be taking a bit of a beating in this thread!

Out of interest Waldorf, what do you class as 'a member of a recognised accountants body' and 'one of the Mickey Mouse, pretend bodies'?

Cheers

Martin
Contratax Ltd

[Waldorf]

Fairly even spread of qualifications as far as I know - we have a rolling training thing so it's changing all the time, and we do a new intake of Apprentices every 6-12 months.

Strange that you don't know, as the 'spokesman' for Crunch I would have thought you would know. I would guess that you actually employ very few qualified accountants, i.e. who have finished and passed all their exams and been accepted as a member of a recognised accountants body, not one of the Mickey Mouse, pretend bodies.

[JonNorris@Crunch]

Thanks that clarifies it

And you keep saying "we" but looks like you are a freelancer ?

Being as specific as I can be without touring the office with a pad of paper asking for everyone's qualifications. They're all on LinkedIn if you're desperate to find out.

I'm both - day job is at Crunch and I also freelance for various people.

[saptastic]

Improving bank feeds is a huge ongoing project for us. We're not happy with the industry standard (Yodlee) from a security point of view so we've developed a few of our own, which we're hoping to build on. So long-term, yes - as to when, couldn't tell you unfortunately.

Fairly even spread of qualifications as far as I know - we have a rolling training thing so it's changing all the time, and we do a new intake of Apprentices every 6-12 months.

Thanks that clarifies it

And you keep saying "we" but looks like you are a freelancer ?

[JonNorris@Crunch]

So will Crunch be doing something similar?

Improving bank feeds is a huge ongoing project for us. We're not happy with the industry standard (Yodlee) from a security point of view so we've developed a few of our own, which we're hoping to build on. So long-term, yes - as to when, couldn't tell you unfortunately.

Thats a bit vague... does that mean 18 apprentices and 1 qualified?

Fairly even spread of qualifications as far as I know - we have a rolling training thing so it's changing all the time, and we do a new intake of Apprentices every 6-12 months.