HMRC Consultative Document - marketed tax avoidance schemes

[jbryce]

Enough....

The other common denominator in "Helpful Rob's" posts is that he/she has never posted outside work hours.

Enough for chrissakes! - he's more informed than the rest of us and even if he works for Hector (which there is NO evidence for) then he's still giving us information which is useful.

Face it - the rest of us are pretty clueless. If he's making us get our heads out of our collective @rses then that's got to be a good thing.

As for posting outside work hours - perhaps he has a job and errrrr an acceptable use policy that discourages posting to forums inside work hours?

[dezze]

Enough for chrissakes! - he's more informed than the rest of us and even if he works for Hector (which there is NO evidence for) then he's still giving us information which is useful.

Face it - the rest of us are pretty clueless. If he's making us get our heads out of our collective @rses then that's got to be a good thing.

As for posting outside work hours - perhaps he has a job and errrrr an acceptable use policy that discourages posting to forums outside work hours?

I think they've made up now...

[Boobetty]

Some have been investigated and no further action is planned.

Could I ask where you get this information, and which schemes are on this list? Would this not mean that a closure notice stating nothing further is payable is on its way for users of such schemes? Alternatively, for schemes where no evidence exists of enquiry activity in, say, the last five years could there be grounds for an application to the FTT for a closure notice, or would that put me in the spotlight?

[Rob79]

Could I ask where you get this information, and which schemes are on this list? Would this not mean that a closure notice stating nothing further is payable is on its way for users of such schemes? Alternatively, for schemes where no evidence exists of enquiry activity in, say, the last five years could there be grounds for an application to the FTT for a closure notice, or would that put me in the spotlight?

HM Revenue&Customs: Withdrawn Scheme Reference Numbers

As to schemes on the list, my firm has identified around 10% of them, mainly in the film and IP relief areas. Other than that we are as much in the dark as you.

Closure notices are usually issued to taxpayers following an HMRC enquiry. You would not usually get a closure notice is a disclosed scheme was investigated and cleared. I would expect the promoter of such a scheme to tell all their users that the DOTAS number had been withdrawn.

The question of time limits litters these boards. There is no period in which a disclosed scheme MUST be investigated. HMRC undertake to have an SRN back with the discloser within 30 days but that's just a reference number. Until HMRC get a SA return or similar with the SRN and a claim for relief, no investigation can start.

Once started, (and this has to be within 12 months of the return filing date), it can run for many years.

And yes, you can apply to a Tribunal for a closure notice. Usually HMRC will oppose this if they think that they are not ready. Invariably the Judge will grant more time, perhaps 3 to 6 months. HMRC are very adept at spinning out the time it takes to get to Court and once in court, they manipulate the system very well. If really pressed, HMRC will issue a closure notice denying relief and then stall on getting the substantive argument into court.

Whichever way you look at this, HMRC controls the timetable.

Is that fair?

If it's your claim and you think you are correct, then no.

If it's not your claim and if you pay either pay more tax or the pothole in the road outside does not get fixed, then do you want HMRC to keep the money as long as possible?

This gets into deep waters very quickly and they are beyond me this afternoon as I'm packing for a holiday.

[lightball]

European Court may be the answer

These legislation is against the human rights and fundamental principles. So far, all the government is doing is attacking poor and their hard earned cash while their letting filthy rich to have it all.

When you are out of work due to mistakes of filthy rich then you are called lazy. When you find a job as the contractor because you cannot find anything else than you are tax dodger.

Despite knowing that contractors don't have security and benefits or bonuses as the permanent employers do including peaceful nights and are probably geared up towards 0 contract. The plan to attack the poor at most vulnerable time is nothing but a work of nasty rich MPs who think they are the only one who deserve decent

If this legislation comes to pass then it's time for European court to step in. Disgrace

[Manu]

Hi Rob - In reference to your point on time limits, in my case HMRC issued discovery assessments on 30 January 2013 (year for 2008/09) and 2/3 September 2013 (for year 2009/10). For both years they were clearly out of time - as per your comment below. I never received any correspondence that my scheme is being investigated etc. The first letter was discovery assessment.

I took professional representation (from a reputed firm) in this matter and the response from HMRC is that they believe that discovery is valid. So clearly no consideration to time limits in this case.

I am still waiting to hear formally from HMRC but the verbal response in a F2F meeting (to my tax firm) was - if you believe HMRC are wrong in raising this discovery then challenge us in court.

I have requested 'Old Kent Road' for access to Sanzar forum (sent the required docs etc.) and awaiting response so that I could get some help.

HM Revenue&Customs: Withdrawn Scheme Reference Numbers


The question of time limits litters these boards. There is no period in which a disclosed scheme MUST be investigated. HMRC undertake to have an SRN back with the discloser within 30 days but that's just a reference number. Until HMRC get a SA return or similar with the SRN and a claim for relief, no investigation can start.

Once started, (and this has to be within 12 months of the return filing date), it can run for many years.

[pimpernell]

Hi Rob - In reference to your point on time limits, in my case HMRC issued discovery assessments on 30 January 2013 (year for 2008/09) and 2/3 September 2013 (for year 2009/10). For both years they were clearly out of time - as per your comment below. I never received any correspondence that my scheme is being investigated etc. The first letter was discovery assessment.

I took professional representation (from a reputed firm) in this matter and the response from HMRC is that they believe that discovery is valid. So clearly no consideration to time limits in this case.

I am still waiting to hear formally from HMRC but the verbal response in a F2F meeting (to my tax firm) was - if you believe HMRC are wrong in raising this discovery then challenge us in court.


I have requested 'Old Kent Road' for access to Sanzar forum (sent the required docs etc.) and awaiting response so that I could get some help.

I think you're confusing HMRC issuing a COP8 (avoidance enquiry into tax year) which must be within one year of submission; and discovery assessment which can be issued according to the following timetable:

up to 4 years from SA submission
up to 6 years from submission if SA deemed careless
up to 20 years from submission if SA deemed deliberately misleading (fraudulent)

I think you've been caught with assessments within the 4 year window

That's my understanding anyway

SALF411 - Enquiries into Tax Returns: time limits for discovery assessments

[Manu]

I think 4 years apply where disclosures not appropriately made. However in my case I had clearly listed DOTAS number and amount of loans etc. For 2008/9 hmrc even issued a refund for extra tax. For 2009/10 I had to pay some underpaid tax. So everything was in their knowledge.

Clearly they are in arm twisting mode

I think you're confusing HMRC issuing a COP8 (avoidance enquiry into tax year) which must be within one year of submission; and discovery assessment which can be issued according to the following timetable:

up to 4 years from SA submission
up to 6 years from submission if SA deemed careless
up to 20 years from submission if SA deemed deliberately misleading (fraudulent)

I think you've been caught with assessments within the 4 year window

That's my understanding anyway

SALF411 - Enquiries into Tax Returns: time limits for discovery assessments

[convict]

See the background info and HMRC vs Charlton et al

[Rob79]

I think you're confusing HMRC issuing a COP8 (avoidance enquiry into tax year) which must be within one year of submission; and discovery assessment which can be issued according to the following timetable:

up to 4 years from SA submission
up to 6 years from submission if SA deemed careless
up to 20 years from submission if SA deemed deliberately misleading (fraudulent)

I think you've been caught with assessments within the 4 year window

That's my understanding anyway

SALF411 - Enquiries into Tax Returns: time limits for discovery assessments

And I think that's correct.

Time limit for opening an enquiry is generally 12 months from the last filing date of a return.
Time limit for a discovery assessment can extend to 6 years from that filing date
Once a COP8 is out there, forget time limits as HMRC can drag things on forever.