Trust help line email help!

[jxtractor]

Which is quite amusing given that the people running THL are the same people who ran Garraway etc. and promised us all that the loans 'weren't real' and therefore the loans couldn't be recalled. Anyone got a loan recently?

I'm sorry jxtractor - but you are obviously a THL representative, the line from you:

"spending 50-minutes going back and forth to a number of their departments,"

is desperate. Really? THL towers isn't really stocked with 100s of call handlers.
.

NO. I wasn't talking about THL. I was talking about the IHT (inheritance tax phone line from HMRC). I called them to discuss the potential inheritance tax implications if I self-declare that my loans will be wiped off within the 30-days. I spent 50 minutes on the phone and no one could help me. Even though HMRC Contractor Loan team had referred me to them to discuss my inheritance tax queries.

[jbryce]

NO. I wasn't talking about THL. I was talking about the IHT (inheritance tax phone line from HMRC). I called them to discuss the potential inheritance tax implications if I self-declare that my loans will be wiped off within the 30-days. I spent 50 minutes on the phone and no one could help me. Even though HMRC Contractor Loan team had referred me to them to discuss my inheritance tax queries.

...and I quote:

I worked only 2-months / some £5000 as a summer extension to my placement year at university

So your summer placement offered you an extension at £2.5K per month? I guess that's £30k p.a. On 30k, you'd pay, say £6k through normal PAYE. So, assuming the usual Sanzar Shenanningans of 15% then you were entering a tax avoidance scheme that would have saved you 1.5K over the course of a year? You could argue that in your two months you saved, say, £250?
Really?
The initial email I had form Sanzar states that 'these arrangements will only suit those earning in excess of £60,000..."

I guess your Lawyer friends will recommend payment?

You may not be THL, but really your story is just a bit weak.

[jbryce]

I'm loving the sarcasm to knowledge ratio, but I don't think you have a clue what you're talking about.

Love for you to prove me wrong - seriously, it would save me a lot of money, time, stress and anger.

So please, be a helpful little ball of rage and point me to:
A) the contract or trust law experts saying it's safe to assume we will never have to repay the loans
B) The bit of spotlight where HMRC state that paying the loan charge has any impact whatsoever on the loan itself (rather than just your tax liabilities on it)

I eagerly await your wisdom

Your wisdom appears to flow from THL. Everyone who took these schemes were told two things:
1. The loans would never be recalled.
2. The Trust would only ever work in your best interests.
Trust law is ferociously complicated, so who knows, but 1000s of users were happy to sign up believing that the loans were a sham.

I really liked the Experian and Equifax angle. So I rang up THL yesterday and asked them and yup, they told me that the loans could appear on my Credit File - so I rang the FCA to express my incredulilty. They were somewhat perplexed as neither THL nor Baker Tilly provide regulated loans. They weren't massively happy that an orginisation was inferring they were regulated when they are in fact not.

If anyone else gets the Credit File line - call the FCA.

I have no idea who posts on these forums - I have no idea if DozyBastard, Bemi or jxtractor work for THL. I may be an HMRC mole - who knows. What I do know is that THL are the same people who ran the schemes and the same people who ran the Contractor Help Desk who told us all to ignore the HMRC demands and who told us they would support all users through to an FTT. These guys are borderline criminals.

[Contractor2999]

Your wisdom appears to flow from THL. Everyone who took these schemes were told two things:
1. The loans would never be recalled.
2. The Trust would only ever work in your best interests.
Trust law is ferociously complicated, so who knows, but 1000s of users were happy to sign up believing that the loans were a sham.

I really liked the Experian and Equifax angle. So I rang up THL yesterday and asked them and yup, they told me that the loans could appear on my Credit File - so I rang the FCA to express my incredulilty. They were somewhat perplexed as neither THL nor Baker Tilly provide regulated loans. They weren't massively happy that an orginisation was inferring they were regulated when they are in fact not.

If anyone else gets the Credit File line - call the FCA.

I have no idea who posts on these forums - I have no idea if DozyBastard, Bemi or jxtractor work for THL. I may be an HMRC mole - who knows. What I do know is that THL are the same people who ran the schemes and the same people who ran the Contractor Help Desk who told us all to ignore the HMRC demands and who told us they would support all users through to an FTT. These guys are borderline criminals.

You managed to phone THL ? Can you post their phone number.

[agileSean]

I was on a bit of a hiatus from all of this after having gotten some advice that I perceived to be negative. I did however, promise to share what I could so here it is, below.

There are some facts that I was able to establish - some of which I’m pretty sure have been, stated on this forum by various posters.

Please be aware that the discussions that I had were over the phone. I didn’t give detailed descriptions of my experience with the EBT and there was no investigation done to see how the EBT was set up. This is the general advice given to many contractors who, having been involved with an EBT, are finding themselves in a difficult situation with the Supreme Court Rangers FC ruling and the introduction of HMRC’s new Loan Charge.

Here’s what I was able to find out/confirm:


It is a real loan between the Borrower and the Lender.
There is a risk the loan could be recalled. A small risk but it is there.
The way to get rid of this loan is to either repay it or obtain a Deed of release.

It has been confirmed to me that Helpline services are representatives of Baker Tilly.
(What Helpline services are doing is deplorable ie charging this extortionate amounts for a Deed of release, but not illegal)

There are likely, legal arguments that can be made against the Trusts but those will depend on the specifics of your involvement with your Trust(s). (In my case after brief phone calls, there were clear examples of shoddiness by the Trust).

There is a general pressure on the Trusts. They are under ongoing investigation.

The communication by Helpline Services has also been inaccurate and I suspect, at times intentionally disingenuous.
Contrary to Helpline services’ claims:

HMRC will not recognise the cost incurred in obtaining a Deed of release and deduct that from the total amount of taxable income.

Obtaining a Deed of Release MAY create a liability for Inheritance Tax. It depends on how the Lender (Trust) was organised.

HMRC have declared to me that they have no association with Helpline services. I think at least one of Helpline services’ email have indicated that they are in communication with HMRC.

I found it quite difficult to find a solicitor who is knowledgeable about the EBT situation. I found most experts were more comfortable in negotiating settlements with HMRC. If anyone would like me to put them in contact with the solicitor that I found, PM me.


I have many questions still and I know the Helpline services due date is upon us …

FEW QUESTIONS
It is not clear to me how it can be valid that Helpline services or any agency can be chasing repayment. In my case the Winchester (UK) Limited have been dissolved and records in Companies House state that all rights and property are now Bona vacantia and belong to the crown.

Has anyone seen a final Deed of release yet?

What if we refuse a Deed of exclusion? Surely that means that we remain Beneficiaries to any amount repaid?

[here4beer]

Here’s what I was able to find out/confirm:

It is a real loan between the Borrower and the Lender.
There is a risk the loan could be recalled. A small risk but it is there.
The way to get rid of this loan is to either repay it or obtain a Deed of release.

Who confirmed this, the people asking for 10% of the loan?

I'm told the Trust can only request you pay it back, and you decline their invite, as its a fiduciary 'duty of care' Trust relationship. No repayment can be demanded - like a bank/traditional lender.

[webberg]

I'm told the Trust can only request you pay it back, and you decline their invite, as its a fiduciary 'duty of care' Trust relationship. No repayment can be demanded - like a bank/traditional lender.

Who told you this?

A loan agreement will contain a clause relating to repayment. Whatever that says, it stands separate and distinct from any obligations or duties imposed on the trustee by reason of trust law.

A trustee is obliged to consider the rights and obligations of the beneficiary in preference to themselves, but that may not stop them making a legal claim for the loan to be repaid if they consider that the beneficiary would be better off having a cash asset rather than a loan asset.

I'm no lawyer but I'm told that the "acting in the best interests of the beneficiary" is at best a very flexible tool in the hands of trustees.

We are also advised that a Court may well consider the loan and trust relationship to be entirely separate matters and not reliant or dependent upon each other.

It's a very complex legal matter - usually conducted in a foreign jurisdiction.

Hence, I'd be interested in any advice you have had leading to the statement above.

I suspect that if the advice does result in the situation you suggest, then this may be specific to your circumstances and if that is the case, then many other users of the forum here may not be in that situation.

[here4beer]

Who told you this?

A loan agreement will contain a clause relating to repayment. Whatever that says, it stands separate and distinct from any obligations or duties imposed on the trustee by reason of trust law.

A trustee is obliged to consider the rights and obligations of the beneficiary in preference to themselves, but that may not stop them making a legal claim for the loan to be repaid if they consider that the beneficiary would be better off having a cash asset rather than a loan asset.

I'm no lawyer but I'm told that the "acting in the best interests of the beneficiary" is at best a very flexible tool in the hands of trustees.

We are also advised that a Court may well consider the loan and trust relationship to be entirely separate matters and not reliant or dependent upon each other.

It's a very complex legal matter - usually conducted in a foreign jurisdiction.

Hence, I'd be interested in any advice you have had leading to the statement above.

I suspect that if the advice does result in the situation you suggest, then this may be specific to your circumstances and if that is the case, then many other users of the forum here may not be in that situation.

Only verbally, it seems to be difficult getting any sort of info in this area written down.

[agileSean]

Who confirmed this, the people asking for 10% of the loan?

I'm told the Trust can only request you pay it back, and you decline their invite, as its a fiduciary 'duty of care' Trust relationship. No repayment can be demanded - like a bank/traditional lender.

No, it wasn't the people requesting 10% of the loan. I looked up a solicitor that has some knowledge of EBTs.


I heard exactly what you heard, ie. I can decline the offer to pay it back. The problem is I have never seen this written down. So that is all fuzzy. I didn't show the solicitor my loan agreement though, so I can't say for sure what rights they have, in my case.

I did argue that surely they cannot demand the money as that would not be treating me as a Beneficiary. The response (much like Webberg's, I think) is that they could argue that it's more beneficial for them to take the money back into the Trust to use in my benefit.

This same solicitor stressed it would be unlikely that they would come after me for the money.

[here4beer]

No, it wasn't the people requesting 10% of the loan. I looked up a solicitor that has some knowledge of EBTs.


I heard exactly what you heard, ie. I can decline the offer to pay it back. The problem is I have never seen this written down. So that is all fuzzy. I didn't show the solicitor my loan agreement though, so I can't say for sure what rights they have, in my case.

I did argue that surely they cannot demand the money as that would not be treating me as a Beneficiary. The response (much like Webberg's, I think) is that they could argue that it's more beneficial for them to take the money back into the Trust to use in my benefit.

This same solicitor stressed it would be unlikely that they would come after me for the money.

Are you able to share your solicitor? I'm struggling to find some who wants to get involved more than just an initial chat. There's a hand full of us using the same promoter who are looking at pulling together to sort this issue. Not big enough to warrant a public thread on here, yet.

Its certainly a fuzzy area, which is why some people aren't bothered (such as my colleagues, etc)- but if i'm going all the way down the settlement route, it makes sense to squash this too.