HMRC Scheme Enquiries (No Big Group champions or tax advisors here please)

[ric_77]

Hi Newbie, Yes, I am in the same boat - 2014-2017 and I am in the process of responding to HMRC after I self declared in January 2017!!! Took them a year to speak to me properly despite trying to get in touch with them!

I believe that Smartpay is now acting as an umbrella organisation....

What stage are you at?

will pm you but will need to request pm rights from admin first

[Finalwhistle]

CLSO?

you going through CLSO Stephen Taylor?
how are you finding the process?? relatively straight forward or not?

[HMRC made Atlas Shrug]

Hello,
I have received an enquiry letter about a loan I received and am in a position whereby a tax advisor is offering to respond to the enquiry for 12 months for a charge. Fine.
However these enquiries are notoriously slow and I don’t really see how such an enquiry will be concluded within the next 15 months prior to April 2019 (loan tax day). Come April 2019 I’m guessing I will be affected by the loans tax irrelevant of what stage of the enquiry is, is this correct?
My arrangement involves receiving a loan from the employer with a guarantee that I repay within 10 years. It is not DOTAS or otherwise EBT registered.
So am I throwing money down the drain on dragging the enquiry out or should I instead be planning the cheapest exit strategy possible in time for April 19?
Anyone else in a similar position?
Thanks

Hello Finalwhistle,

To start with, I am NOT giving advice. I am not telling you to do. I am not against nor am I for any group selling their advice. I’m also not charging you for the privilege of me not giving you advice. All I’m doing is telling you what I did and why to maybe help you with your thought process.

When HMRC hit me with this a couple of years ago, I looked at a number of the “professional advisors” out there at the time. Not a single one of them boosted me with enough confidence that they would get any further with HMRC than if I talked to HMRC myself. I found all they were interested in was to sign me up with near to zero chance (in my opinion) of getting a better deal, snake oil salesmen sprang to mind. Maybe unfairly but that is how I felt. The longer I waited (this was dragged out), the worse the deals were getting according to HMRC. The interest/charge meter was running and the professional advice fee would also be adding up if I joined anybody. (Note, this was my feeling, I may have been wrong.) The way I saw things, these advisors were happy to charge me “professional” (!!!) fees and all they would be doing for it, is read and respond to letters from HMMafia. I knew and still know nothing about tax law however, I am able read and write. I know how to do searches on the internet and I do not charge myself for doing any of these. I had no interest in dragging this out, my interest was in drawing a line under it. In my opinion, what the people working at HMRC are doing is not a charge or fine. We followed the law and professional advice. What those psychopaths at HMRC are doing is theft.
OK I hope my rant is over.

I decided I could do it better and cheaper (free) myself.

To stop interest/charges increasing by the day, I wanted to come to an agreement a.s.a.p. I called HMRC to talk to someone in person on the phone to get things going. WARNING !!! I think those beeeeeps are trained to trick you into saying things so even if you make a honest mistake, they have you on record. I started to feel as if I was being lured into a trap during the talk. The guy was not interested in helping, all he was interested in was to trap me. I only knew to watch out for this because of extensive reading I did on the internet beforehand. I told him I wanted to correspond in writing and ended the conversation (interrogation). In my opinion, do not get into a long detailed conversation on the phone with these crooks, get/give contact details and get out.

Keep ALL your correspondence with HMRC in letters or e-mail and KEEP all your correspondence. I cannot stress this enough. Read everything more than once and read it very slowly, make sure it sinks in. If I was not a meticulous person I would have advised myself no to take this on myself.

I provided HMRC with bank statements (I paid my bank to print missing statements from their archives). I signed HMRC’s settlement, got me loan released and paid up in full on HMRC’s terms. OK my retirement is just about stuffed, no more jam on bread. Aldi (other cheap shops are available) here I come. From I would have been independent in my retirement to I now at some point may have to figure out how to submit benefit claims but hey, that is what the civil servants with their gold plated pensions want for the rest of us. I feel it will be my duty to try to recoup some of this theft by HMRC.

WARNING !!!! I MADE A MISTAKE. Settling with HMRC is NOT the end of it if your loan is via a trust (I can’t speak for loans not via trusts). Do NOT trust the beeeeps working at HMRC !!! I will say it again, do NOT trust those .......s working at HMRC !!!

If your loan was via a trust, my understanding is at some point it has to be released or written off to avoid the 2019 charge and it, is a notifiable event with posable (guaranteed) IHT implications. Should this happen, do NOT try to hide if from HMRC, tell them. HMRC gave me the option to include the release of my loan as part of their settlement which I opted for. HMRC even stated in HMRC’s own settlement agreement, IHT was included in the settlement. Guess what. Once HMRC got the settlement money from me, I received a claim from HMRC for IHT on the release of my loan. This was after I tried to get clarification from the IHT department before settling, but the IHT department chose not to respond until after I settled with an IHT claim. However, HMRC already included IHT in their settlement so I was not accepting it.

I am not a member of any group but I’ve been in contact with one group on here and I’ve been trying to warn people about the IHT “surprise” that is on top of any settlement. I provided one of the big groups on this forum with all my relevant documentation to (1) hopefully help them avoid the same trap for their clients and (2) I asked for their advice in return for me passing them all my info, even if there was (small-ish) fee. I also approached another “professional” tax advisor company for advice.

I was not prepared to pay the what I think are extortionate fees (in the thousands), by any of these people (just to even have a look at my documents in the case of the company). The advice I did get, well I was back in the same place when this all started. Loads of ifs buts maybes but nothing even close to concrete that gave me confidence in their ability apart from the professionals know diddlysquat (in my opinion) as to what to do to get a better deal from HMRC than if I did it myself. So I was back to “I can write the letters myself”.

There is a place for the groups selling their service/advice. It is stressful and takes a LOT of your time if you do it yourself. That is, it takes time if you want to get it right. Dealing with HMRC regarding these loans is not for sissies. These professionals are supposed to know the maize of noncommittal ever changing HMRC rules that always has a get-out clause in HMRCs favour which trust me, is helpful to understand how/why HMRC is screwing you. Maybe these groups end up saving their clients a lot of money and I wish them all the luck. We will only know with the Finalwhistle. :-)

Note, I already settled on HMRC's terms. All I was disputing was HMRC's IHT claim. I based my dispute on HMRC’s own settlement with me, the wording in their documents. I ended up spending a lot more stressful time writing more letters to HMRC, without professional help. After the professionals were not sure it could be done, I an amateur, received this from HMRC.

“Tax liability, although correctly charged, cannot be collected under the terms of the agreement and I am writing to formally withdraw the charge and to confirm that no further tax is due from you in respect of the Loans or the Trust.”

Keeping in mind the (HMRC) interest/charges and professional fees meters are running. The professionals have to get a better settlement for their clients than HMRC offered two/three years ago, when HMRC said future deals will be worse. They also have to get their clients off having to pay IHT on released or written off loans, good luck with that. The deal also has to be less than their expensive professional fees.

OK HMRC may renege on this latest statement to me, I can only hope they don’t. However, I the amateur got this result when the professionals were not sure (more a case of thought) it could not be done. Now ask yourself where the professionals are at for their clients.

Once again, I am NOT giving advice. I’m glad I did not listen to the professionals this time around, it is professional advice that got me into this pickle to start with. Maybe the professionals get it right this time and get an amazing deal for their clients but I never liked gambling.

You have to toss that coin before the Finalwhistle. ;-)

Good luck.

[Finalwhistle]

...

You have to toss that coin before the Finalwhistle. ;-)

Good luck.

Thanks for this Atlas. I'm glad you managed to settle your debts and this is all behind you. I also thank you for still coming back here and sharing your opinions when I'm sure you'd much rather be talking or thinking about something else!

I have paid the advisor now but never at any time did they promise to get me a better deal; in fact they have been pretty open in that they will be able to do nothing for me other than potentially stop "bullying tactics" or HMRC thinking they can take the p1ss. I wonder how many people would have just paid that second IHT charge rather than contest it like you did? It takes nothing for HMRC to write the letter for a chance of securing another 40% return! I believe there was a time before the DR LC where an advisor may have been able to rebuttal the enquiry so much that HMRC would have been forced to go to court or receive nothing. However times have since changed and there seems to be an air of inevitability about the whole thing; even with the advisors!

fortunately my loans don't involve trusts so it should be relatively straight forward going through the CLSO process.

see you maybe in Lidl sometime...Aldi is too expensive for me now

[HMRC made Atlas Shrug]

Obviously if you can't pay, even via TTP, then a group may be your only hope.

I agree with you apart from the bit I quote above.

In my humble opinion, paying for (sometimes very expensive) advice or joining one of these groups to try to reduce HMRC's theft is taking a gamble with good money. If I was in debt, even though tempting, I would not double up (gamble more of my money) because I'd be deeper in it if I lost.

I know nothing about these things but maybe look into other options. 'Selling up' and legging it out the UK with what you got, come back when you are old, broke or need the NHS. Or look into if there is a kind of bankruptcy but my understanding is HMRC will not let you get off that easily. They will still want their cut the moment you do earn anything or have any assets at all.

In my case I accepted my retirement is screwed thanks to the people working at HMRC not following the law of the time on decisions made at the time. I had to sit down in the cold light of day and be realistic, did the numbers and took it from there.

Head in the sand was not an option for me and I did not want to give my last pennies to professional advisors on the meter that I'm not impressed by and to date achieved . . . . maybe they will maybe they won't. I just could not afford that gamble.

What I'm trying to say, be realistic if you can or can't afford to pay up. HMRC will look at all your assets. Do not try to hide things from them. And consider other options.

[regron]

I agree with you apart from the bit I quote above.

....... Or look into if there is a kind of bankruptcy but my understanding is HMRC will not let you get off that easily. They will still want their cut the moment you do earn anything or have any assets at all.

Interesting comment but there are still guidelines HMRC have to follow regarding Bankruptcy, so what makes you feel they won't allow you to get off that easily ? A bankruptcy process has to be followed and is final, so just curious, as it IS my only option at the moment.

[ChimpMaster]

Note, I already settled on HMRC's terms. All I was disputing was HMRC's IHT claim. I based my dispute on HMRC’s own settlement with me, the wording in their documents. I ended up spending a lot more stressful time writing more letters to HMRC, without professional help. After the professionals were not sure it could be done, I an amateur, received this from HMRC.

“Tax liability, although correctly charged, cannot be collected under the terms of the agreement and I am writing to formally withdraw the charge and to confirm that no further tax is due from you in respect of the Loans or the Trust.”

Keeping in mind the (HMRC) interest/charges and professional fees meters are running. The professionals have to get a better settlement for their clients than HMRC offered two/three years ago, when HMRC said future deals will be worse. They also have to get their clients off having to pay IHT on released or written off loans, good luck with that. The deal also has to be less than their expensive professional fees.

OK HMRC may renege on this latest statement to me, I can only hope they don’t. However, I the amateur got this result when the professionals were not sure (more a case of thought) it could not be done. Now ask yourself where the professionals are at for their clients.

That's a great result and well done for following this through. Looks like you might have dodged a bullet there!

Personally I am still in limbo on this but increasingly likely to just follow through with CLSO2 direct with HMRC. Ultimately the end game is the same.

[ConfusedEasily]

That's a great result and well done for following this through. Looks like you might have dodged a bullet there!

Personally I am still in limbo on this but increasingly likely to just follow through with CLSO2 direct with HMRC. Ultimately the end game is the same.

Not being an accountant or a lawyer for that matter - but what exactly does the following mean:

“Tax liability, although correctly charged, cannot be collected under the terms of the agreement and I am writing to formally withdraw the charge and to confirm that no further tax is due from you in respect of the Loans or the Trust.”

A couple of things here:
1. This doesn't mention IHT
2. Not that we're allowed to mention Phil or BG on here, but both of those advisors have stated that IHT (for a large number of trusts) simply is not applicable.

And enough of 'advisors got us into this mess'. WE got ourselves into this mess by not doing our homework and not giving the horse's dentistry a good going over. You may get lucky, but if you don't - HMRC will **** you over if you **** up.

[Finalwhistle]

That's a great result and well done for following this through. Looks like you might have dodged a bullet there!

Personally I am still in limbo on this but increasingly likely to just follow through with CLSO2 direct with HMRC. Ultimately the end game is the same.

Just to make it clear. My initial question was surrounding a £1k charge to pay an advisor to "respond to an enquiry". As responding to an enquiry has no real outcome other than CLSO i was questioning whether it is worth it or not...particularly as it had a 12 month time attached to it (and nothing tends to happen within 12 months).

There are advisors out there offering to help you through the CLSO process for a fixed fee of circa £500 which for me is worth the money no doubt. The advisor is present on this website if you want his details then PM me and i'll pass you over their details.

[Finalwhistle]

WE got ourselves into this mess by not doing our homework.

We got ourselves into this mess based on the Laws and legislation at the time. It was always a risk yes and if you've spent the money and kept nothing in reserve then that maybe is the mistake. Taking on a risk with no contingency is definitely a mistake.