APN representation grounds

[webberg]

And I assume they would have to produce facts, such as amount of loan received, PAYE already taken into account and not just "their belief " ? They surely are obliged to reduce it if counter figures are produced such as bank statements etc showing the liability is less ?

The calculation will need to show total amount of "income", less tax free amount for that year and then banding of amounts for taxation 10%, 20% 45% etc ?

Most APN's come with a comprehensive calculation of how the tax has been worked out but is less forthcoming about how the loan has been calculated. A lot of them are "salary x 4/5/6". Questionable.

[topgazza]

Being new to this and not wishing to go over ground I guess has been covered, I'll read more later, but the appeal if you like would be based on accuracy of the numbers and as I have read, not the APN itself. Again if the contractor can show via bank statements loans and salaries received for a more accurate calculation of PAYE ?

[neil99]

Being new to this and not wishing to go over ground I guess has been covered, I'll read more later, but the appeal if you like would be based on accuracy of the numbers and as I have read, not the APN itself. Again if the contractor can show via bank statements loans and salaries received for a more accurate calculation of PAYE ?

You are right. Perhaps take advantage of the Big Group APN checking service. They can help you with all this.

IF you have P11D and bank statements then I'd assume the APN people would accept these as a basis to calculate the correct charges?

[topgazza]

With the lack of any evidence from their side I would hope they would accept bank statements in lieu of any payslips or P60. The only evidence of any loan payments after all are bank statements if their is no P11D/P60 which they should have copies of anyway. If they can't find them at least bank statements are better than guessing. I guess most people will at least be able to demonstrate regular and consistent payments into their bank of both salary and any loan payments which would demonstrate that. I have only a couple of P11D and P60s from recent years and I would think thats the same for most. I normally keep everything but after 4 years or so things get lost which is not unreasonable.

be interesting to see if anyone has offered bank statements and detailed spreadsheets showing what they have received.

[Wibble1]

Any success from representation against an APN?

http://forums.contractoruk.com/hmrc-...n-grounds.html

None of them have been proven to be effective or to cause HMRC to withdraw a notice.

Since writing this are you aware of any success from this approach taken by individuals?

Also, I'm sure I read in another post that WTT had been having some success resulting in some APN's being withdrawn and I'm guessing they will be on technicality grounds. I'd be interested to know which schemes you've had success with and the reason for the withdrawal.

I'm looking to make representation against APN's received whilst using Edge.

[Wibble1]

http://forums.contractoruk.com/hmrc-...n-grounds.html



Since writing this are you aware of any success from this approach taken by individuals?

Also, I'm sure I read in another post that WTT had been having some success resulting in some APN's being withdrawn and I'm guessing they will be on technicality grounds. I'd be interested to know which schemes you've had success with and the reason for the withdrawal.

I'm looking to make representation against APN's received whilst using Edge.

Actually, it was not on a post here that I saw a statement about success resulting in some APN's being removed, it was on the WTT website where it states...

"To date we have achieved a number of APN withdrawals and many reductions. For further information or to speak to one of the team please contact us here."

[webberg]

Actually, it was not on a post here that I saw a statement about success resulting in some APN's being removed, it was on the WTT website where it states...

"To date we have achieved a number of APN withdrawals and many reductions. For further information or to speak to one of the team please contact us here."

Which is true.

Reasons vary from personal circumstances to incompetent administration.

We have also put down markers to challenge "discovery" and we would expect more success there in due course.

Frustrating the will of Parliament is not what we're doing. The legal basis of the APN regime is enshrined in law and the JR's running seem to be more about the competence of HMRC to act as judge, jury and executioner of the terms. I'm not a lawyer and have no opinion as to the merits or otherwise of that argument.

We base our strategy on the practical rather than the theoretical.

We can and do achieve significant delays in payment dates (3 to 6 months +) and in agreeing instalment plans. We have had some APN's withdrawn as above.

I understand that Edge has a JR running already but you may now be too late to join that. (I'm sure other Edge users can confirm/deny that).

Most Edge APN's for periods up to 2010/11 have been issued now and are beyond their 90 day representation period. Check carefully those time limits before paying any fees.

[Wibble1]

Which is true.

Reasons vary from personal circumstances to incompetent administration.

We have also put down markers to challenge "discovery" and we would expect more success there in due course.

Frustrating the will of Parliament is not what we're doing. The legal basis of the APN regime is enshrined in law and the JR's running seem to be more about the competence of HMRC to act as judge, jury and executioner of the terms. I'm not a lawyer and have no opinion as to the merits or otherwise of that argument.

We base our strategy on the practical rather than the theoretical.

We can and do achieve significant delays in payment dates (3 to 6 months +) and in agreeing instalment plans. We have had some APN's withdrawn as above.

I understand that Edge has a JR running already but you may now be too late to join that. (I'm sure other Edge users can confirm/deny that).

Most Edge APN's for periods up to 2010/11 have been issued now and are beyond their 90 day representation period. Check carefully those time limits before paying any fees.

Fortunately my APN's for the period ending 2010/11 were never received by me and so HMRC agreed to reissue with a revised 90 day deadline which is up just before xmas. Hence me exploring options for representation with a view to getting at least another 30 days.

It would be great it I was able to get details of the Edge JR in progress which I have to admit I did not know about even though I've been following this space closely for a couple of years.

Whilst I've still to join the Big Group before the end of the year, I'm wondering if it's too late for WTT to review my 3 APN's now with a view to delaying payment dates with HMRC or weather I should use some of the reasons above and pursue myself.

I site firmly within the camp of I will not pay. What I did was not wrong and was done within the rules at the time. When these rules around EBT changed post 2010 I stopped using EBTs. As far as I'm concerned that should be that. HMRC should see that as a victory (stopping people using them) but not punish someone for driving 30 mph when the speed limit was still 30 mph.

[webberg]

Fortunately my APN's for the period ending 2010/11 were never received by me and so HMRC agreed to reissue with a revised 90 day deadline which is up just before xmas. Hence me exploring options for representation with a view to getting at least another 30 days.

It would be great it I was able to get details of the Edge JR in progress which I have to admit I did not know about even though I've been following this space closely for a couple of years.

Whilst I've still to join the Big Group before the end of the year, I'm wondering if it's too late for WTT to review my 3 APN's now with a view to delaying payment dates with HMRC or weather I should use some of the reasons above and pursue myself.

I site firmly within the camp of I will not pay. What I did was not wrong and was done within the rules at the time. When these rules around EBT changed post 2010 I stopped using EBTs. As far as I'm concerned that should be that. HMRC should see that as a victory (stopping people using them) but not punish someone for driving 30 mph when the speed limit was still 30 mph.

Well, my view is obviously BIASED in favour of getting opinion/help from a professional and preferably WTT. You should therefore bear that in mind when reading the following.

Making a valid representation gains you a delay of more than 30 days. You wait until say a week before they are due, make a rep and HMRC will write back to say that they will consider it by xx/xxx/2016. Once they send you the result of that consideration you have 30 days from that date to pay.

the delay might be therefore several months.

As to not paying on principle, be careful.

Non payment will result in a penalty which can climb to 15% of the APN. It is common sense that if the APN is eventually reduced to NIL, then 15% of NIL = NIL. However the rules may not be interpreted like that. It may be that if there is even a small liability eventually agreed arising from the arrangement, the penalty is still based on the original APN value.

This is unclear. HMRC don't know the answer. I'd like to think that the answer is that a penalty will be based on actual final value, but I cannot find a definitive logic that says that.

DMB (HMRC's collection arm) appear to be moving slowly and softly in terms of collecting unpaid APN's. Their usual process is pretty much standard with written demands, telephone calls, personal visits, reports on ability to pay etc, Court action, possible bankruptcy action. To date I've not seen any actions going to Court. Perhaps we're too early in the process?

We have had some anecdotal evidence that DMB is reluctant to press ahead in Court with a disputed amount. I have seen NOTHING official on this and cannot therefore confirm that is correct.

If you choose not to pay however, be aware of the potential cost to your stress levels, your family's stress levels, your credit rating and if you work in financial services, potentially your ability to continue.

[Wibble1]

Well, my view is obviously BIASED in favour of getting opinion/help from a professional and preferably WTT. You should therefore bear that in mind when reading the following.

Thanks webberg. Your advice as always is sensible and well grounded and appreciated.
Question. I'd like to contact WTT to discuss, if I did who would I be speaking with. I've followed you on this forum for sometime and it would be good if it was you.