APN and penalty

[DonkeyRhubarb]

What if you have already told them that there is no way you can pay the amount of the SO and there is no way you are willing to pay £x00s / month for the rest of your days?
This is of course in writing and recorded.

HMRC - We want £ xx 000s.
"Customer" - I don't have it
HMRC - Well in that case we want £ x 000s + another £ xx 00s in penalties and £ xx 00s in interest.
"Customer" - I don't have it
etc

If you don't pay an APN it is an enforceable debt.

At the moment we just don't know far HMRC would go to enforce it.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

The following is a response from HMRC - OFFICIAL.

The example given is where an APN for £100 is issued, not paid so attracts a maximum 15% penalty and later the final liability is less than £100. In other words the APN as issued is excessive and perhaps issued in order to coerce people into settlement.

Dear Mr xxxxxxx,

The late payment penalties apply if payment is not made in respect of an APN by the due date, irrespective of the final outcome of the matter. So in your example below, the total of £15 of penalties would remain.

When there is a JR challenge, the penalty is chargeable from the stated due date for payment of the APN.

I have not checked the rules in depth yet but I think another series of challenges is probably the result if this response is correct.

I can't decide if 1.13.10 contradicts the above.
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...-f-notices.pdf

1.14.4 also suggests that you get the penalty refunded if you win the substantive litigation (your tax appeal)

[MishiMoo]

I can't decide if 1.13.10 contradicts the above.
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...-f-notices.pdf

1.14.4 also suggests that you get the penalty refunded if you win the substantive litigation (your tax appeal)

I think that 1.14.4 refers to penalties in respect of Follower Notices (section 1). Penalties in respect of non-payment of APNs are dealt with in section 2.7. I cannot find any section that deals with the situation where a penalty for non-payment of an APN has been applied, but where the scheme was later found to work, but that does not mean it's not there somewhere. Or maybe they just forgot to add that bit?

[DonkeyRhubarb]

I think that 1.14.4 refers to penalties in respect of Follower Notices (section 1). Penalties in respect of non-payment of APNs are dealt with in section 2.7. I cannot find any section that deals with the situation where a penalty for non-payment of an APN has been applied, but where the scheme was later found to work, but that does not mean it's not there somewhere. Or maybe they just forgot to add that bit?

Thanks for correcting my mistake.

The whole thing is a convoluted nightmare. Penalties on a debt that might not be a debt. Penalties on a debt that aren't refundable if the debt turns out not to be a debt.

[DotasScandal]

The whole thing is a convoluted nightmare. Penalties on a debt that might not be a debt. Penalties on a debt that aren't refundable if the debt turns out not to be a debt.

This. Truly the creation of an insane mind!

[MishiMoo]

Thanks for correcting my mistake.

The whole thing is a convoluted nightmare. Penalties on a debt that might not be a debt. Penalties on a debt that aren't refundable if the debt turns out not to be a debt.

Agreed 100% You literally could not make it up!

[foobar]

Pay the APN -> Then what?

Suppose you had the means and you pay the APN - What happens next?

Your case is still not settled as far as I understand but at least you will have avoided any penalties?

Join a group and off to the FTT to fight to get the money back?

Have I made any staggering assumptions that are wrong??

[LandRover]

Suppose you had the means and you pay the APN - What happens next?

Your case is still not settled as far as I understand but at least you will have avoided any penalties?

Join a group and off to the FTT to fight to get the money back?

Have I made any staggering assumptions that are wrong??

Ultimately its FTT, but sadly with appeals and procedures...could be years of waiting for a final outcome

[centurian]

Your case is still not settled as far as I understand but at least you will have avoided any penalties?

The APN penalties at least - there may still be penalties applied to the underlying case if lost, although the general view is that penalties are unlikely if you fully declared the scheme on your tax return.