Opportunity to participate in an APN judicial review

[ads1980]

Thanks for summarising that for me

It really is crazy. And although it's a different scheme in terms of its set up, do you think the outcome of Ingenious will hold any direct impact on the EBT schemes?

[webberg]

Thanks for summarising that for me

It really is crazy. And although it's a different scheme in terms of its set up, do you think the outcome of Ingenious will hold any direct impact on the EBT schemes?

Unlikely to be any direct read across.

The Ingenious case is about whether the partnership is trading. If yes, partners can claim a loss against other income. If no, no loss.

There are some elements of general application. The argument HMRC is groping towards here (everybody knew this was tax avoidance aided and abetted by manipulated numbers) has appeared before in Court. See the cases of Tower MCashback and Acornwood in the last couple of years.

If HMRC can show that all contractors in an EBT knew that it was tax avoidance, then the balance in a decision shifts.

I'll stop there. This thread is about APN and JR.

Happy to debate via PM.

[flamel]

I think what he means is, if you ended up being asked to pay more than the initial £900, it would be because the JR actually stood some chance of success.

The £900 is just to file the papers, get it stayed behind Ingenious and apply for the court orders to prevent enforcement.

I'd be surprised if it ever got any further than this.

i.e. this is £900 to get a delay in enforcement of, say, 3 - 6 months, no more than that?

[DonkeyRhubarb]

i.e. this is £900 to get a delay in enforcement of, say, 3 - 6 months, no more than that?

The length of time is uncertain but I would think at least 6 months.

Assuming Ingenious lose round one in the High Court, it depends on whether they appeal to the Court of Appeal.

[webberg]

The length of time is uncertain but I would think at least 6 months.

Assuming Ingenious lose round one in the High Court, it depends on whether they appeal to the Court of Appeal.

Given the people at Ingenious I think it would be a given that they will press this hard. I would expect this to go a long way but...

there is a danger that a loss at round one will permit collection of APN even if the case goes on.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

Given the people at Ingenious I think it would be a given that they will press this hard. I would expect this to go a long way but...

there is a danger that a loss at round one will permit collection of APN even if the case goes on.

Yes but there's not much point anyone worrying about imponderables.

If someone joins a JR to buy time then they just have to hope it buys a decent amount of time.

[lilikins1]

I don't know if this is a silly question but, if HMRC never prove that I owe them money. Will i be able to sue them for all this money they are making me spend fighting my corner?

[webberg]

I don't know if this is a silly question but, if HMRC never prove that I owe them money. Will i be able to sue them for all this money they are making me spend fighting my corner?

Not sue them but you could go to their Ombudsman who may award costs or compensation.

bear in mind that HMRC makes millions of mistakes every year and perhaps less than 50 awards of costs.

[lilikins1]

The length of time is uncertain but I would think at least 6 months.

Assuming Ingenious lose round one in the High Court, it depends on whether they appeal to the Court of Appeal.

So it would be delay in enforecement but we would have to pay the penalties once the final pay up day comes along?

[DonkeyRhubarb]

So it would be delay in enforecement but we would have to pay the penalties once the final pay up day comes along?

Potentially but I understand Pinsents intend to challenge the penalties issue.

If you can pay APNs, it probably makes sense to pay them.

If you can't pay then you would get penalties anyway.