Settlement Opportunity

[DonkeyRhubarb]

True, but each individual can request an FTT - you are entitled to your day in court.

You won't get it though unless your circumstances are substantially different to the lead/test cases.

The court is wise to vexatious claims.

[StrengthInNumbers]

It takes easily 6-9 months to get a case to FTT and hear date assigned. Date could be 6 months ahead. HMRC has to issue closure notices and facts need to be agreed between Parties. HMRC plays very well in delaying and they will delay. But we don't have an option now. I am expecting FTT decisions in related scheme to start coming in next 18 months. But matters will take up to 5 years to conclude as FTT and UTT decisions will be appealed for sure.

HMRC will also make sure weaker cases like Boyle go in first so that they can scare more and set precedence. Remember HMRC has lined the law as much as it could in its favour - so it is not going to be short and quick. But I surely see light at the end of tunnel if I just base my thinking on law and not general mood against avoidance.

If anyone would have followed both UBS and deutche bank lost in FTT but one won at UTT and one in court of appeal. Both had EBTs.

Another way of looking at this is - government to collect tax and show books have been balanced. Paying back what has been collected will be someone's else problem. Government is only interested in winning next election. No doubt our chancellor has included big collection numbers in his forecast and HMRC has been given a tool in form of APN to ensure government objective is not met. And it is just a political objective to make good headlines and get votes. Longer term everyone is losing faith in disclosure and this start of underground avoidance which will be very very bad and difficult to catch.

[StrengthInNumbers]

You won't get it though unless your circumstances are substantially different to the lead/test cases.

The court is wise to vexatious claims.

Agree. No point in wasting money unless circumstances are substantially different. FN will ensure not many will do that as it will mean additional penalties.

[turbowoowoo]

So pretty much anyone can request an appeal to FTT. you can only appeal to UTT on points of law..

My main worry, and it is a big one for me is that currently the settlement does not include penalties and NICs

Lose at FTT or worse no FTT forecoming from scheme provider or contractors then you could see a 50% increase.

As someone who is in the 20-40K bracket of liabiltiies, SO is looking ore and more attractive (wrong word I know) to me. protect my liabilities and move on.

main issue I have is most of my loans were post 2011. Anyway, still have 6 months to finalise my position

[StrengthInNumbers]

So pretty much anyone can request an appeal to FTT. you can only appeal to UTT on points of law..

My main worry, and it is a big one for me is that currently the settlement does not include penalties and NICs

Lose at FTT or worse no FTT forecoming from scheme provider or contractors then you could see a 50% increase.

As someone who is in the 20-40K bracket of liabiltiies, SO is looking ore and more attractive (wrong word I know) to me. protect my liabilities and move on.

main issue I have is most of my loans were post 2011. Anyway, still have 6 months to finalise my position

Can u please explain how and why losing at FTT a mean 50% more tax? Did Boyle had to pay any penalties? As far as I know penalties under APNS are only when u don't pay in 90 days. If u can settle then u can sure pay the APN in time as well. Also time to pay arrangements will be the same as well.

Pay APN and wait for other cases to go to courts. Wait for a court of appeal decision and then settle if similar scheme has not won. If similar scheme won most probably u will be able to go to court on your own - it will be much easier.

FN has penalties but your scheme or a similar must have already lost in court.

[turbowoowoo]

Can u please explain how and why losing at FTT a mean 50% more tax? Did Boyle had to pay any penalties? As far as I know penalties under APNS are only when u don't pay in 90 days. If u can settle then u can sure pay the APN in time as well. Also time to pay arrangements will be the same as well.

Pay APN and wait for other cases to go to courts. Wait for a court of appeal decision and then settle if similar scheme has not won. If similar scheme won most probably u will be able to go to court on your own - it will be much easier.

FN has penalties but your scheme or a similar must have already lost in court.

Potentially

NI
Penalties (I am sure they will try and apply these)
additional interest

I am no expert and I do not have a magic ball but the information I am hearing is alarming me. I am being told that penalties of some sort would apply???? I want to see what AML are going to do first before I make my decision.

I am confused as no one seems to understand what action HMRC will take to people who do not settle..

[MrsB1974]

IHT

I received my settlement figure and it too mentions possible IHT. I looked at their website and they contradict themselves, and pretty much admit that payments are loans, I quote

"IHT recognises the existence of the loans, following the legal form of the documents and any charges which arise from events which involve them. "

So in order to qualify for IHT they have to be loans, and HMRC recognise these as loans, as quoted by them on their website, so how can they then be liable for income tax. They need to decide what they are actually trying do here. It seems to me they are just quoting tax rules to scare people and they dont actually know what they are doing or what their tax rules are.

Agreed - surely they can't double-tax... however given the choice (ha!) I'd much rather pay income tax than IHT £££££.

What is everyone's gut feel - will Hector issue APNs with IHT and the only way to get out of it, or to reduce the tax bill, is to take Hector to court?

(And is IHT always paid on *loans* from a trust? It would seem more applicable if it was an actual payout from a trust?)

[StrengthInNumbers]

Whether settle or APNs the money will be same if u agree with HMRC. HMRC ARE NOT AND CANNOT LEGALLY BR GIVING A DISCOUNT OR TAKE A PENALTY OFF BECAUSE U R SETTLING. For interest u have tax deposit certificate.

Just ask HMRC why and how Penalties will be applied under APN with a clear example case.

[NeedTheSunshine]

Agreed - surely they can't double-tax... however given the choice (ha!) I'd much rather pay income tax than IHT £££££.

What is everyone's gut feel - will Hector issue APNs with IHT and the only way to get out of it, or to reduce the tax bill, is to take Hector to court?

(And is IHT always paid on *loans* from a trust? It would seem more applicable if it was an actual payout from a trust?)

I really don't understand the IHT element and the document they put out on Friday about the Settlement Opportunity being extended hasn't made it any clearer for me.

I think the inclusion of IHT in the settlement calculation will vary from scheme to scheme depending on how that scheme's particular trust was set up.

I wish they hadn't extended the settlement opportunity deadline. It just means it will all drag on for even longer now.

[turbowoowoo]

Whether settle or APNs the money will be same if u agree with HMRC. HMRC ARE NOT AND CANNOT LEGALLY BR GIVING A DISCOUNT OR TAKE A PENALTY OFF BECAUSE U R SETTLING. For interest u have tax deposit certificate.

Just ask HMRC why and how Penalties will be applied under APN with a clear example case.

So tell me what happens when the APN is paid ? What happens if there is no FTT case? or the case is lost?

At some point either after an FTT result or when it is not contested will HMRC apply penalties? I know APN's do not have any penalties attached, its what happens afterwards that worries me.