Ukip! Ukip! Ukip!

[DodgyAgent]

But bad for the very poorest I was talking about?

The minimum wage needs to be low enough not to deter employment. if you make the minimum wage the same as the living wage then this will simply eat into costs and give rise to inflation. The answer is to look at where people spend money on "needs" - food, energy and housing and to then create competitive markets for their supply.

I dont buy all this equality nonsense because it is usually dressing up old fashioned envy - an excuse to tax the rich. I prefer to see more people involved in capitalist activities with the state maintaining a healthy environment for them to thrive - low taxes (rates and corporation taxes especially), plenty of housing, good education and plenty of competition and minimal red tape.

[SpontaneousOrder]

plenty of housing

It's the government that caused this problem in the first place. Keep them out.
Apart from the inflation you mentioned, which nullifies the exercise off the bat (those people 'benefiting' from the NMW are the very same people who spend close to 100% of their income on the very products & services that that same demographic work to produce - i.e. when a big mac doubles in price it won't be the guy on 40k a year that suffers as a large chunk of his income is his to piss up the wall anyway), any minimum wage instantly and forcibly prohibits the poorest (typically young or less abled or poorly educated) from using the only competitive advantage they have in order to compete in the marketplace. Historically black men's ability to sell their labour cheaply was the only weapon they had to overcome the racism which would otherwise see them destitute. Our fresh school leavers are in the same position - selling themselves cheaply is their only weapon against their inexperience. Why employ a school leaver when you can get someone with some life experience for the same price?

Any minimum wage also immediately reduces the number of possible jobs that could exist. How many of us could do with a gardener if we could get one for £2 an hour? Instead our grass grows long while some poor kid sits on his arse all day drinking and smoking drugs to escape the minimum wage tragedy that prevents him from achieving any satisfaction from life, while the rest of us still pay for that grass-cutting that never occurred.

Anyone who can be bothered to do any study can see an almost direct comparison with the disaster that has been rent control around the world. See the many large cities in north America where rent control reduced the housing available, and reduced the quality of that which remained.

[doodab]

Look for the tonnes of articles (or youtube vids where they're interviewed) by Thomas Sowell (who i find more interesting as a previous marxist in his youth, and a black man old enough to know when inequality was even worse) or Milton Friedman. They'll explain very clearly if you're interested.

Opinions aren't evidence.

[doodab]

But bad for the very poorest I was talking about?

You know nothing of capitalism.

so no evidence to offer then.

[tractor]

Look for the tonnes of articles (or youtube vids where they're interviewed) by Thomas Sowell (who i find more interesting as a previous marxist in his youth, and a black man old enough to know when inequality was even worse) or Milton Friedman. They'll explain very clearly if you're interested.

I just did, Milton Friedman spent 5 minutes trying to convince me that NMW was a bad thing because it helped trades unions protect their members

He said it was the cause of disproportionate youth unemployment and made no mention of the effect immigration has on it. I suspect he is just another snake oil salesman pushing his own agenda, by his own admission there is always a bad person behind the do gooders

And like I said another one who says something is bad but does not explain why. His explanation was sketchy and flawed and certainly did not convince me.

[tractor]

...

It's the government that caused this problem in the first place. Keep them out.
Apart from the inflation you mentioned, which nullifies the exercise off the bat (those people 'benefiting' from the NMW are the very same people who spend close to 100% of their income on the very products & services that that same demographic work to produce - i.e. when a big mac doubles in price it won't be the guy on 40k a year that suffers as a large chunk of his income is his to piss up the wall anyway), any minimum wage instantly and forcibly prohibits the poorest (typically young or less abled or poorly educated) from using the only competitive advantage they have in order to compete in the marketplace. Historically black men's ability to sell their labour cheaply was the only weapon they had to overcome the racism which would otherwise see them destitute. Our fresh school leavers are in the same position - selling themselves cheaply is their only weapon against their inexperience. Why employ a school leaver when you can get someone with some life experience for the same price?

Any minimum wage also immediately reduces the number of possible jobs that could exist. How many of us could do with a gardener if we could get one for £2 an hour? Instead our grass grows long while some poor kid sits on his arse all day drinking and smoking drugs to escape the minimum wage tragedy that prevents him from achieving any satisfaction from life, while the rest of us still pay for that grass-cutting that never occurred.

Anyone who can be bothered to do any study can see an almost direct comparison with the disaster that has been rent control around the world. See the many large cities in north America where rent control reduced the housing available, and reduced the quality of that which remained.

We have the same here with hardly any rent control. Especially at the lower end of the market.

As for the rest of it, if all our youth have got to look forward to is a little grass cutting if they are lucky, isn't it obvious that there is something drastically wrong with successive governments in not promoting and engendering the right conditions for a prosperous nation? From education to world trade, since Thacher's disastrous proclamation that the future is in services, it's been downhill all the way. Most of our large commercial organisations are foreign owned because we passed no laws with privatisations like the French and the US did to ensure they remained in the hands of the UK, even the National Lottery is owned by a Canadian Pension Fund. The pursuit of globalisation and cost reduction is the cause of most strife for any first world country. It's a bit like football, once we were world class but now we are third division.

[DodgyAgent]

We have the same here with hardly any rent control. Especially at the lower end of the market.

As for the rest of it, if all our youth have got to look forward to is a little grass cutting if they are lucky, isn't it obvious that there is something drastically wrong with successive governments in not promoting and engendering the right conditions for a prosperous nation? From education to world trade, since Thacher's disastrous proclamation that the future is in services, it's been downhill all the way. Most of our large commercial organisations are foreign owned because we passed no laws with privatisations like the French and the US did to ensure they remained in the hands of the UK, even the National Lottery is owned by a Canadian Pension Fund. The pursuit of globalisation and cost reduction is the cause of most strife for any first world country. It's a bit like football, once we were world class but now we are third division.

BBC News - UK service sector growth remains strong, PMI survey says what is wrong with having a service sector?

BBC News - Britain for sale?

Research by the Centre for Economic Performance at the London School of Economics show that foreign-owned plants are, on average, more productive than domestically-owned establishments.

Multinationals can bring fresh ideas and expertise, such as new technologies and management practices. The same goes for British multinationals setting up in foreign countries.

The Spanish bank Santander already owned the Abbey National but there were few complaints in 2010 when it absorbed the Bradford & Bingley and the Alliance & Leicester building societies to become one of the largest UK retail banks.

At the time there was considerable relief it was prepared to use its balance sheet to avert two further potential Northern Rocks. Foreign investment is unsurprisingly welcomed when there is a need for cash.

In any case, Britain still owns far more direct investment assets overseas than vice versa. The ONS estimates that Britain currently has £1.1 trillion direct investment assets overseas, £300bn more than the rest of the world owns in the UK.

Britain also typically enjoys a surplus in investment income.

Since 2000, inflows of investment income have averaged 13.5% of GDP compared to outflows which have averaged 12.4% of GDP. This means each year Britain has received a net flow of investment income equal to 1.1% of GDP from the rest of the world.

It just goes to show that Britain has a long history of successfully buying other countries' family silver.

[doodab]

Well this is a question for proponents of a minimum wage. A minimum wage is good, right? Raising the minimum makes people better off, right? So why not make it £20, or £200? Why not £1 million per hour?

Because like most such parameters (interest rates, tax rates etc) it's going to have an optimal value that lies somewhere between extremes. Actually one needs to consider all the variables one has control over and find an optimal set of values, but the point still stands.

The current situation in the UK is such that the cost of labour is subsidised by the taxpayer. This implies the minimum wage is set to low and/or people can't pick up enough hours.

[MicrosoftBob]

Opinions aren't evidence.

Tell that to HMRC they seem to get away with spouting opinions as facts

[tractor]

..

BBC News - UK service sector growth remains strong, PMI survey says what is wrong with having a service sector?

BBC News - Britain for sale?

Research by the Centre for Economic Performance at the London School of Economics show that foreign-owned plants are, on average, more productive than domestically-owned establishments.

Multinationals can bring fresh ideas and expertise, such as new technologies and management practices. The same goes for British multinationals setting up in foreign countries.

The Spanish bank Santander already owned the Abbey National but there were few complaints in 2010 when it absorbed the Bradford & Bingley and the Alliance & Leicester building societies to become one of the largest UK retail banks.

At the time there was considerable relief it was prepared to use its balance sheet to avert two further potential Northern Rocks. Foreign investment is unsurprisingly welcomed when there is a need for cash.

In any case, Britain still owns far more direct investment assets overseas than vice versa. The ONS estimates that Britain currently has £1.1 trillion direct investment assets overseas, £300bn more than the rest of the world owns in the UK.

Britain also typically enjoys a surplus in investment income.

Since 2000, inflows of investment income have averaged 13.5% of GDP compared to outflows which have averaged 12.4% of GDP. This means each year Britain has received a net flow of investment income equal to 1.1% of GDP from the rest of the world.

It just goes to show that Britain has a long history of successfully buying other countries' family silver.

For every convenient story that supports your view, there is another that counters it Best of British? Just 44 of top 150 brands now UK-owned

The truth is that someone elses' greed or your own laziness is what stops everyone from having a home and being able to adequately provide for themselves. All governments are happy to keep the status quo because it is what keeps them in power. This is why we are spending bazillions on HS2 and not 1m new homes.