UKIP Interview

[DodgyAgent]

Do you really think voting for them on the basis that they upset those you happen to disagree with is wise? That's a very similar reasoning process to that which justifies voting to "punish the rich" or "stop big business" and it's equally unsound.

You also seem somewhat taken in by the rhetoric regarding immigration and the EU being undemocratic. The inherent falsity of the last statement in particular can be rather neatly summed up by pointing out that if it were undemocratic you wouldn't be voting.

You make a very good point then lose it at the end. To begin with I believe that the UK has become far too integrated into the EU so much so that it will be unable (and unwilling) to exact reform from within. Only by pulling out altogether and renegotiating terms with the EU do I believe the UK can get the best out of its relationship with the rest of Europe.

The establishment that consists of the three main parties and big business have little interest in reform because the status quo suits them very well. Only by pulling out or being seen to be actually serious about pulling out will reform happen.

As for your silly remark saying "we have a vote so we must be a democracy" is laughable because according to this argument then North Korea is a democracy

:North Korean parliamentary election, 2014 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Unix]

As I have said before, there is a media campaign under way from all the major press to discredit UKIP and Farage, this usually fools the more weak minded naive citizens. That interviewer was completely biased and was a disgrace to journalism.

[doodab]

As for your silly remark saying "we have a vote so we must be a democracy" is laughable

No more so than your assertion that the EU is undemocratic because you happen to disagree with it's output.

The problem is not that the institution is undemocratic, the problem is that it is. Democracy doesn't scale very well. Please don't attempt infer from this that I'd prefer one of the other systems, as I wouldn't, but I do think scalability is a fundamental problem for democratic institutions.

[doodab]

As I have said before, there is a media campaign under way from all the major press to discredit UKIP and Farage, this usually fools the more weak minded naive citizens. That interviewer was completely biased and was a disgrace to journalism.

There also seems to be this persistent trait among UKIPers to declare that anyone who disagrees with them is somehow naive or being hoodwinked by the mainstream parties & their media lapdogs. Aside from being incredibly patronising and not winning you any friends, it's also utter bollocks.

Most people were and are just as cynical about the mainstream parties as any UKIPper, arguably more so. We just aren't taken in by Mr Farage's brand of "charm". We can see through that veneer quite easily and underneath that he's not any different to the rest of them. That leaves only his ideas which are frankly nothing more than rehashed mid 90s Tory euroskepticsm. I didn't agree with them then and I don't agree with them now.

You might also want to bear in mind that polls have shown the majority of UKIP's popular support is composed of less well to do ex-tory and labour voters who have failed at life and are looking for someone to blame. One might well describe such people as the "weak minded".

[DodgyAgent]

No more so than your assertion that the EU is undemocratic because you happen to disagree with it's output.

The problem is not that the institution is undemocratic, the problem is that it is. Democracy doesn't scale very well. Please don't attempt infer from this that I'd prefer one of the other systems, as I wouldn't, but I do think scalability is a fundamental problem for democratic institutions.

This is what I disagree with - i.e that there is too little entrepreneurial activity within the EU. Roger Bootle sums it all up rather nicely in todays Telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/c...obscurity.html

Second, the EU has provided a comfort blanket for states pursuing the European social model. In following an interventionist and socialistic agenda, nation states have felt that they were aligned with the direction of travel set by Brussels.
The EU has been right at the centre of the entitlement and rights culture which has dominated European life for the last thirty years and which is growing ever stronger.
Indeed, it is striking that the EU project has been driven and run disproportionately by people who have been trained as, or who have practised as, lawyers. The law is of course about a set of rules whereas business is about taking advantage of opportunities. It is scarce wonder that the whole culture of the European Union has become so anti-enterprise.

[DodgyAgent]

You might also want to bear in mind that polls have shown the majority of UKIP's popular support is composed of less well to do ex-tory and labour voters who have failed at life and are looking for someone to blame. One might well describe such people as the "weak minded".

Evidence?

An inability or unwillingness to take on the central arguments of UKIP means once again you have to resort to smearing.

[original PM]

This is what I disagree with - i.e that there is too little entrepreneurial activity within the EU. Roger Bootle sums it all up rather nicely in todays Telegraph:

Roger Bootle: Europe’s politicians must embrace competition or face slide into obscurity - Telegraph

Second, the EU has provided a comfort blanket for states pursuing the European social model. In following an interventionist and socialistic agenda, nation states have felt that they were aligned with the direction of travel set by Brussels.
The EU has been right at the centre of the entitlement and rights culture which has dominated European life for the last thirty years and which is growing ever stronger.
Indeed, it is striking that the EU project has been driven and run disproportionately by people who have been trained as, or who have practised as, lawyers. The law is of course about a set of rules whereas business is about taking advantage of opportunities. It is scarce wonder that the whole culture of the European Union has become so anti-enterprise.

I have to agree with that -and you see it in the work place - seem to be a lot of people who take great delight in telling other people what they can and cannot do but seem to contribute very little to the actual growth of the company.

[doodab]

This is what I disagree with - i.e that there is too little entrepreneurial activity within the EU. Roger Bootle sums it all up rather nicely in todays Telegraph:

Roger Bootle: Europe’s politicians must embrace competition or face slide into obscurity - Telegraph

Second, the EU has provided a comfort blanket for states pursuing the European social model. In following an interventionist and socialistic agenda, nation states have felt that they were aligned with the direction of travel set by Brussels.
The EU has been right at the centre of the entitlement and rights culture which has dominated European life for the last thirty years and which is growing ever stronger.
Indeed, it is striking that the EU project has been driven and run disproportionately by people who have been trained as, or who have practised as, lawyers. The law is of course about a set of rules whereas business is about taking advantage of opportunities. It is scarce wonder that the whole culture of the European Union has become so anti-enterprise.

Within the UK we have a political class who have primarily studied politics rather than anything useful. Are you seriously suggesting that this class of feckless know nothings might somehow create conditions for entrepreneurial activity to flourish unimpeded if only the EU wasn't there? As far as I can tell they are much more interested in ensuring that their friends in existing big business flourish than encouraging upstart competition that threatens the status quo.

I'd also say that for creativity to flourish it needs to be nurtured. Nothing grows in a desert. While it's not beneficial to create disincentives to work via the benefits system the people affected by that particular problem are not exactly overflowing with entrepreneurial spirit anyway. They might be forced to get jobs but they aren't going to start the next google. The sort of people who are are the sort that avoid becoming (or choosing to be as some would have it) trapped in the benefits system.

OTOH the model pursued by UK PLC is very much geared towards ensuring that as many good little worker bees as possible are stuck in a position where they can't afford to risk giving up stable employment to take a chance on running their own business. That's hardly conductive to entrepreneurship either, and I'd argue that particular pressure is less prevalent in some other countries in the EU than it is here.

The EU also gives access to a large and diverse market that can easily be tapped by online & mail order business, and it seems to be crying out for alternative to US based online services, so I'd say it's fairly ripe for a spot of entrepreneurship.

[doodab]

Evidence?

An inability or unwillingness to take on the central arguments of UKIP means once again you have to resort to smearing.

There was a recent widely quoted yougov poll. And I'm not "smearing" anyone, I'm responding to being characterised as "naive and weak minded" by pointing out that I am probably somewhat less so than the average UKIP voter.

I've looked at the central arguments of UKIP, I don't agree with them because I don't agree with many of their starting assumptions. I don't feel a need to try and persuade you or other UKIPpers of my view because from what I've seen you aren't interested in debate you're only interested in complaining about being "smeared" and calling people idiots when they disagree with you. I'd rather not waste my time.

More to the point, on the issues I actually care about, UKIP don't appear to have any policies, and as far as I am concerned that makes them irrelevant.

[DodgyAgent]

There was a recent widely quoted yougov poll. And I'm not "smearing" anyone, I'm responding to being characterised as "naive and weak minded" by pointing out that I am probably somewhat less so than the average UKIP voter.

I've looked at the central arguments of UKIP, I don't agree with them because I don't agree with many of their starting assumptions. I don't feel a need to try and persuade you or other UKIPpers of my view because from what I've seen you aren't interested in debate you're only interested in complaining about being "smeared" and calling people idiots when they disagree with you. I'd rather not waste my time.

More to the point, on the issues I actually care about, UKIP don't appear to have any policies, and as far as I am concerned that makes them irrelevant.

Link?