Hezbolla

[wendigo100]

Civilisation made the Israelis ineffective. Like most democratic countries the Israelis do not deliberately target civilians and in most cases dropped leaflets warning civilians of bombing raids. Hezbollah not only have no qualms about hitting Israeli civilians, they have little concern for Lebanese civilians either in that they protect themselves by making their bases in civilian areas contrary to the Geneva convention

Bullsh1t.

Israel killed 1000+ civilians in this war (a lot more than Hezbollah for probably decade of shooting rockets at Israel), perhaps this is better than potential 10,000 they could have killed, but clearly enemy civilian losses are not a big factor for Israel.

Alexei, the point has gone right over your head, hasn't it!

Deny any of this:

* Hezbollah target Israeli civilians

* Israel do not target Lebanese civilians

* Hezbollah position themselves among Lebanese civilians to protect themselves or, if attacked, give Israel bad world-wide press

[Diestl]

Depends on whose spin you believe, I believe Israel were reckless with their attacks killing suspected targets.

[AtW]

Deny any of this:
* Hezbollah target Israeli civilians
* Israel do not target Lebanese civilians

Hezbollah shoots poorly guided missiles at pretty much civilian targets, so answer to this is yes.

Israel seems to be trying to minimise civilian casualties, yet it is undeterred by possibility of such casualties - throwing around leaflets advising to leave area is BS because people got nowhere else to live.

Now, facts are that Israel killed far more civilians using guided bombs, missiles etc than Hezbollah killed using their unguided missiles. Do you dispute that in 3 weeks of conflict Israel killed at least 10 times more civilians than Hezbollah?

I am sure they could have killed 100 times more - and its good they did not, however in principle the score in terms of civilian deaths is in Israel's "favour". If, God forbid, my family was killed by whoever's strike, then I would not give a fk whether precautions were made or not, death is death - its not making people whose relatives died feel any better that even more would have died.

Note - when it all started Hezbollah actually attacked military outpost, took POWs, and then made pretty reasonable demand for prisoner exchange - this was normal practice in all wars up to pretty much until now! Swap prisoners, say thanks that they attack military outposts thereby avoiding civilian casualties and keep it there.

[oraclesmith]

I always read a great deal of history, particularly military history. Of course there's not much point in doing it, apart from interest, unless it helps to predict.
Not many people expected the Israelis to get checked so easily in Lebanon recently and I was wondering if any of the congregation have any insight or ideas. Something has changed and I dont doubt that the Israelis (and us) should be greatly perturbed.

the usual factors are

numbers
technology
morale
supply
speed
tactical systems
leadership

The additional factor is clearly the huge media exposure and international scrutiny which accompanies any conflict nowadays. Each event is picked over by the public at large and supported/condemmed, spawning thousands of blog entries, forum threads etc. It gives a huge advantage to terrorists, but at least it limits casualties because no-one wants to be seen as the bad guy.

[AtW]

Hezbollah <> Lebanon. The Lebanese army didn't fight the Israeli's. The Lebanese people would rather this conflict hadn't been started in the first place. Hezbollah do not speak for all Lebanese, or even the majority of them.

Hezbollah is basically unofficial Lebanese army - this allows to fight while officially not having war.

Hezbollah is in the Govt and certainly supported by very significant chunk if not majority of Lebanese people. Why? Because otherwise guerrilla war would have been impossible - otherwise those people who lose their homes would have killed Hezbollah themselves, but they don't do it and all indications are that they support them big time: it seems that they are more successful than HAMAS even, who as you may remember, got democratic majority.

[oraclesmith]

"Saniora: Lebanese Army Seizes Hizbullah Weapons
The Lebanese army has seized weapons belonging to Hizbullah in south Lebanon, Prime Minister Fouad Saniora was quoted as saying in a French newspaper on Tuesday.
"The army has been seizing certain weapons, that is confirmed," Saniora told a group of four journalists, including Le Monde's correspondent, accompanying UN Secretary General Kofi Annan to Beirut.

"There have been interceptions, but our policy is not to make announcements on such matters," he said, adding that the seizures involved "heavy weapons".

"We are not the enemies of Hizbullah," he said, "but we will tolerate no armed presence, either carrying weapons or wearing uniforms."

"No area will be off limits to the army," he said, vowing that Lebanese forces would "confiscate any weapons that it finds".

"That is already what is happening in a firm but friendly way."

Le Monde's correspondent quoted "informed sources" as saying that Hizbullah was "trying to rearm as quickly as possible" and that the Lebanese army was "doing its best" to intercept shipments allegedly coming by land from Syria.(AFP)

Beirut, 29 Aug 06, 19:39

http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/ne...2?OpenDocument

[xoggoth]

So if somebody dropped a leaflet near your house saying they would be bombing the area in the next 2 hours atw, you would sit there saying "I aint got nowhere else to go" ???? That must be the wierdest argument of the month.

[AtW]

That's a show off - the army takes token guns to show some activity, then those guns will be "destroyed", in reality passed back to guerillas.

[AtW]

So if somebody dropped a leaflet near your house saying they would be bombing the area in the next 2 hours atw, you would sit there saying "I aint got nowhere else to go" ????

I would certainly leave, but what if whole of UK was leafleted, where would everyone go? Say it was obvious that Germans would bomb London again and again, yet many if not most people stayed there. Why? They knew for certain that next air raid would happen next day, yet they stayed. Stupid? No - in cases when so many people are affected you can't really go far away.

Now xoggoth - look at this arse and take it easy...

[milanbenes]

Gentlemen,

it is clear to see that those based into the UK and drawing their research from the resident propaganda machine are left with uninformed nonsensical opinions

those outside the UK exposed to information from all sides are able to see the bigger picture

the fact remains, the other countries have to use different tactics as they don't have multi billion defense budgets

perhaps the fairest way would be for the other countries to have the same size defense budgets and access to the same hardware and let them get on with it under Queensbury rules and the Geneva convention

then let's see who wins

nobody can deny the response was disproportionate even Jack Straw was brave enough to say so

so Xog and the rest before you try to rubbish Alexei and force your opinions on us, have a think about the local propaganda machine which is influencing your opinions

Milan.