Will UKIP 's campaign manager apologize for the Cash for Question scandal?

[mos]

The point Xog is making, and that I happen to agree with, is that a society can only tolerate migration at a certain rate. Once that rate is exceeded existing members of the society start to react in undesirable ways. In the UK uncontrolled migration has led to such a large number of immigrants that they are no longer being successfully assimilated.

This isn't "anti-polish" it's simply an acknowledgement that we've let too many people in over the last ten years. The ONS estimate 1 in 8 of the population is now foreign born, up from 1 in 20 in 2004, and it's simply too many new people for society to cope with. The large numbers are simply too disruptive, and what you observe is the end result of that disruption. Poles are singled out because although they are a minority in society as a whole they are by far the largest group of foreign nationals in the UK, more than Indians & Irish put together.

1 in 8 of the usually resident UK population were born abroad - ONS

What? Look at the country of birth and add on illegal immigration. Next!
The census (571) does not add up with this graph (~640).

[petergriffin]

Erm, hate to rain on your parade but I'm about as pro EU as they come. Simply pointing out that foreign corporations profiting from privatisation of formerly nationalised institutions is hardly a phenomenon unique to Poland.

Ok I've got it wrong on you.

But isn't this Farage's favourite argument? That the EU is nothing but a scam to steal money from local businesses and give it to European banks?

But does he propose in return? He wants to make the UK a big tax heaven, like a bigger version of Switzerland, which is itself is moronic.

But Switzerland has at the moment 22% of foreign workforce.

The question remains: why is Neil Hamilton good enough for UKIP? And why is the Hail not having a go at them?

[mos]

I have to do my groceries, am off. I better take an umbrella for the protection.

[doodab]

What? Look at the country of birth and add on illegal immigration. Next!

It is really striking by the way. It seems that only about 20K, which is only about 3% of Polish born immigrants have British nationality. I am wondering how they counted Poles with double nationality?

Ironic that you are so quick to accuse others of ignoring any argument they disagree with when you're so dismissive of actual facts.

Illegal immigration is a red herring. Even if the entire worst case estimates of illegal immigrants in the UK all happened to come from the same place the Polish would still be the largest foreign born contingent in the UK. Like it or not, it's a fact, and it goes some way to explaining why Poles are singled out by some people. I'm not suggesting it justifies it at all, simply that it explains why they specifically are picked on.

We've had uncontrolled large scale migration in the UK for some time. There is a lot of evidence, from all over the world, that rapid large scale migration leads to problems, such as the increase in racism that you yourself are complaining about, and I think we're starting to see these problems in the UK now. Although I'm not anti-migrant, I am anti social disorder as I like to live in a harmonious peaceful world. Addressing those problems requires addressing the causes, which means among other things getting migration under control, so I think that it needs addressing. Doing so will benefit existing migrants just as much or more than it benefits the British.

I personally think a common inter-EU migrant cap at some %age of the existing population (say 0.2% of the working age population per year, excluding students) would be a workable solution and still allow for a free labour market.

FWIW I also think Poland's relatively booming economy is likely to attract it's fair share of Bulgarians and Romanians. We'll see how that pans out.

[mos]

Illegal immigration is a red herring. Even if the entire worst case estimates of illegal immigrants in the UK all happened to come from the same place the Polish would still be the largest foreign born contingent in the UK. Like it or not, it's a fact, and it goes some way to explaining why Poles are singled out by some people. I'm not suggesting it justifies it at all, simply that it explains why they specifically are picked on.

Look at the numbers again: In 2011 there are about 725K legal immigrants born in India and 640K born in Poland (or according to 2011 census 570K). When you compare this to nationality graph, it demonstrates that Poles are the least willing to change their citizenship, while Indians and Pakistanis are the most likely to do so. Interestingly it also shows that German born are more likely to acquire British citizenship than American born.

I personally believe that the illegal immigration to UK is much higher, but its not relevant for this argument when you revisit the numbers.

[doodab]

Look at the numbers again: In 2011 there are about 725K legal immigrants born in India and 640K born in Poland (or according to 2011 census 570K).

Yes, you're right of course, but look at the second graph (which is the one I was looking at, actually nationality rather than place of birth, my mistake). More than half of those Indian born immigrants are British citizens.

[xoggoth]

Size of groups in the UK as a whole is not the issue. The fact is that they are largely concentrated in certain towns and cities and have a major impact on those who live there.

Take my second nearest town for example, where Poles alone are 20% of the population and one third of the school pupils (according to the BBC) are from Eastern Europe. What do you imagine the effect is on the locals who have difficulty finding a place for their own kids, whose council taxes are being spent trying to expand to meet this extra demand? When somebody has been paying council tax for years, why should they not resent it when others can come in and immediately get school places for their children despite having paid little or nothing? Why should they not be concerned that their children may be held back by the lower achievements of these children?

PS YES! While they do much better than some other migrants, even Eastern European children slightly lag white Brits in GCSE attainment, check the DOE stats.

PPS And before somebody quotes that tired old chestnut about younger migrants paying for our ageing population, let me point out the obvious flaw in that. Money cannot be spent twice. If migrants' taxes are paying for our pensioners, they cannot also be paying into the pot for their own pensions so, some day, somebody else will have to support them in turn. What do you do then, bring in yet more migrants? When does this ridiculous "solution" end, when we are standing on each others' heads?

[mos]

Size of groups in the UK as a whole is not the issue. The fact is that they are largely concentrated in certain towns and cities and have a major impact on those who live there.

Take my second nearest town for example, where Poles alone are 20% of the population and one third of the school pupils (according to the BBC) are from Eastern Europe. What do you imagine the effect is on the locals who have difficulty finding a place for their own kids, whose council taxes are being spent trying to expand to meet this extra demand? When somebody has been paying council tax for years, why should they not resent it when others can come in and immediately get school places for their children despite having paid little or nothing? Why should they not be concerned that their children may be held back by the lower achievements of these children?

PS YES! While they do much better than some other migrants, even Eastern European children slightly lag white Brits in GCSE attainment, check the DOE stats.

PPS And before somebody quotes that tired old chestnut about younger migrants paying for our ageing population, let me point out the obvious flaw in that. Money cannot be spent twice. If migrants' taxes are paying for our pensioners, they cannot also be paying into the pot for their own pensions so, some day, somebody else will have to support them in turn. What do you do then, bring in yet more migrants? When does this ridiculous "solution" end, when we are standing on each others' heads?

As for your allegation that Polish children are less smart than English, see the last PISA results: http://www.oecd.org/pisa/keyfindings...s-overview.pdf
I am not surprised that bullied Polish children are not performing at the best of their potential. Imagine how much anguish UKiP attitude must cause to little ones?

As for your attempt to blame the Polish minority for pre-existing immigration problem - sorry no sale.
I have been here long before 2004 and I visited Wembley, Southall, Alperton, Harrow, Birmingham, Rusholm in Manchester, Luton and so on. Hope its self explanatory. Even recently I have been to Ealing, which used to be Polish stronghold and at least half of the people on the street were from Subcontinent. Not surprising given that the entire EU contingent constitutes only 20% of the total legal net immigration.

It is yet another example of using Polish minority as a scapegoat - because you know that you will not receive death threats from us. We just keep our head down and work.

[Ticktock]

It is yet another example of using Polish minority as a scapegoat - because you know that you will not receive death threats from us. We just keep our head down and work.

Wow... so if someone is from the Indian Sub-continent then they're a terrorist or will issue death threats? I guess you're a prime candidate to join the BNP yourself.

[xoggoth]

Can't find it now but have seen studies that put Poles at top of Europe intelligence league. I did not say they were less smart, I said they achieved lower GCSE results in the UK, which is not the same thing and is probably due to coping with a new language. It is the results in the UK that are relevant to discussions of UK education, not an international comparison as per your quote.

I agree, as I have already said, that Poles are preferable to some other migrants, from the education and other stats alone, but that does not mean that such huge numbers in a fairly short space of time do not create a problem for us. The local town had various ethnic minorities which have slowly grown over decades but I do not recall seeing any of them going from zero to 20% in just 8 years. It is the rate of growth that impacts us, quite aside from issues of integration.