EU corruption "equivalent to the bloc's annual budget"

[KentPhilip]

Again you are assuming rationality on the part of other European leaders and politicians

And you're assuming the rationality of the EU leaders.
My view is you can't rely on either. But with individual nations the impact of a bad government is less than when the EU as a whole goes bad.

We do. Plus, if the EU dilutes the governance of Britain, it also dilutes the governance of some countries with a less honourable democratic long term reputation like Spain, Germany (more recently a good reputation), Portugal, Greece, Italy and a number of Eastern European countries; quite nice to know Britain has a way to exert serious pressure on them.

OK so let the EU live on with those other nations a member of it. More fool them.
If Germany will become a better place to live becoming part of a communist collective (the EU) than as their own soverign nation I'll eat my hat.

Yes, I agree, now why do you think that you can achieve that by doing the one thing that I know from extensive experience in Europe that they won't take seriously, i.e. walking out?

I think if the EU allowed the UK to renegotiate its membership to one of a pure trading relationship, then I don't think we need to walk out. Will they? Unlikely I think.
So walking out is our only option I suspect.

We could set up a rival european free trade organization, and watch as countries drop like flies from the EU and come and join our one..


I must say Mich you are giving me a run for my money. The points you make are challenging and informed. Great training for a (possible) politician

[Mich the Tester]

communist collective (the EU) than as their own soverign nation I'll eat my hat.

See now you're going radical again. I've seen communism in Europe (I also lived over here when there was a bloody great big wall just up the road, before spending some time in the UK) without actually having the misfortune to live under it. Many, many Germans have seen it too. The EU and the former eastern bloc have very little in common, although I am (and a lot of Germans are, including Angela Merkel) concerned about the growth of surveillance.

[Mich the Tester]

I think if the EU allowed the UK to renegotiate its membership to one of a pure trading relationship, then I don't think we need to walk out. Will they? Unlikely I think.
So walking out is our only option I suspect.

And to that I say 'wait and see'. Most of the discussions will be with Germanic and Scandinavian states, because like it or not (and it's not really ideal), they're the ones with the money and the real influence (quite simply, they can either bribe the southern Europeans to accept concessions or break them if they don't), and they are quite likely to give extensive leeway to Britain in renegotiating membership IF Britain is still in; it is unacceptable in those cultures to walk away from negotiations (there are good historical reasons for that) and it ensures you don't get taken seriously. Stay in, talk with the people who have the money, and you will see that Britain is not alone in wanting a different EU, in fact, many others do but are not always in a position that they can say that openly (Germany needs to keep several others on board). You would probably find most German CDU members, Dutch VVD, CDA and D66 members agreeing that change is needed and the EU needs to move more toward free trade and less regulation; those people will influence their leaders if they're influenced by Britain; in fact, they want Britain to influence things more because they are often business owners who want free trade and less regulation. Trouble is, the tories walked out of the European Peoples Party where most of those people reside and joined in with some crazy nationalist groupings.

[Mich the Tester]

So walking out is our only option I suspect.

This is where you're wrong. Britain has historically got precisely what it wanted from the EC/EU. Margaret Thatcher got a big discount on membership when she demanded it. John Major got an opt-out on the social chapter (although Tony B Liar then pissed it away), Cameron ensured that Britain doesn't have to pay into the funds to support the Euro, even though some less relevant leaders of more nearly bankrupt countries felt Britain was just as responsible as others. On this record, Britain has a good chance of getting a better deal by staying in and negotiating.

Of course, there will have to be concessions both ways and some face saving measures for both sides (which are usually rather insignificant subparagraphs dressed up as something important); that's how politics works. But I think that if CMD (actually it'll be much brainier people than him negotiating) plays his cards right, and more importantly is allowed to do so by the British public, then you could come out with a much better deal.

[KentPhilip]

And to that I say 'wait and see'. Most of the discussions will be with Germanic and Scandinavian states, because like it or not (and it's not really ideal), they're the ones with the money and the real influence (quite simply, they can either bribe the southern Europeans to accept concessions or break them if they don't), and they are quite likely to give extensive leeway to Britain in renegotiating membership IF Britain is still in; it is unacceptable in those cultures to walk away from negotiations (there are good historical reasons for that) and it ensures you don't get taken seriously. Stay in, talk with the people who have the money, and you will see that Britain is not alone in wanting a different EU, in fact, many others do but are not always in a position that they can say that openly (Germany needs to keep several others on board). You would probably find most German CDU members, Dutch VVD, CDA and D66 members agreeing that change is needed and the EU needs to move more toward free trade and less regulation; those people will influence their leaders if they're influenced by Britain; in fact, they want Britain to influence things more because they are often business owners who want free trade and less regulation. Trouble is, the tories walked out of the European Peoples Party where most of those people reside and joined in with some crazy nationalist groupings.

I think you're right in a sense that if UKIP get into power they will, initially, get round the negotiating table with the EU and discuss things with them. But if they don't get what they want, it'll be a case of adios to EU.
David Cameron says he wants to renegotiate with the EU. But he hasn't said that the demands he will make will be a move back to that trading-only relationship. Even if he did say this I would not believe him.
UKIP have been very clear about what they want, so you know where you stand with them.

Thanks for the chat sir!

[darmstadt]

This is where you're wrong. Britain has historically got precisely what it wanted from the EC/EU.

Last year the UK got 90% of its requests, changes, etc. passed so its not as if the EU doesn't listen. What the UKIP, and probably the Tories, want is something slightly different. They want 100% and to dictate to the EU what the EU's policies should be...

[Mich the Tester]

Last year the UK got 90% of its requests, changes, etc. passed so its not as if the EU doesn't listen. What the UKIP, and probably the Tories, want is something slightly different. They want 100% and to dictate to the EU what the EU's policies should be...

Now I wonder whether that will be more or less difficult if they leave and have 0% of the votes. Hmmm, ... <rubs chin>

[KentPhilip]

Last year the UK got 90% of its requests, changes, etc. passed so its not as if the EU doesn't listen. What the UKIP, and probably the Tories, want is something slightly different. They want 100% and to dictate to the EU what the EU's policies should be...

Nonsense. We want 100% to determine to the UK what the UK's policies should be (assuming we are elected). We don't care about the EU - their policies are up to them.

[Mich the Tester]

Nonsense. We want 100% to determine to the UK what the UK's policies should be (assuming we are elected). We don't care about the EU - their policies are up to them.

Yep; that's very understandable, but when you join a free trade organisation, you don't get 100% if you want to stay in; you have to comply with all sorts of agreements about product standards, customs, anti protectionism agreements and so on (assuming you want to sell stuff in other countries in that agreement), so you won't get free trade AND 100% self determination. It's one or the other. Joining the EEA, for example, which is I believe one of UKIP's ideas (and I think it's a reasonable idea but could be better), means complying with all sorts of EU product regulations without any influence on those regulations.

[KentPhilip]

Yep; that's very understandable, but when you join a free trade organisation, you don't get 100% if you want to stay in; you have to comply with all sorts of agreements about product standards, customs, anti protectionism agreements and so on (assuming you want to sell stuff in other countries in that agreement), so you won't get free trade AND 100% self determination.

We'll comply with the EU regulations that are sensible (yes there are a few, I'll concede) and refuse all the rest. If that means we can't sell beef to Austria (to make up an example) because doing so means complying with a regulation that would harm the UK more than the benefit of that sale, then we'll just stop selling beef to the Austrians. We'll pick and choose what regulations we like, and if the EU don't like it we won't participate in that specific trade.
That is far better than saying to the EU we'll do everything you want, and damn the consequences to us.
And just because we are not in the EU does not prevent us from talking to them and making sensible mutually-beneficial suggestions - perhaps with a bit of luck they might listen to some of them!

It's one or the other

Now you're the one talking in black and white terms.