Greed is Good!

[OwlHoot]

I think the go suity thread show how peer support can get these people through.

giggle

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

First point - of course it does, but there are definitions within which equality is logically possible.


Second point - most people on the left are looking to reduce inequalities in economic outcome, and reform or replace the structures that lead to increased inequality.

Of course you will disagree with this and that is fine. I merely wanted to point out how ridiculous your previous statement was.

Do you have a definition of 'human worth' which allows for absolute equality?

You're right I don't agree How does social engineering reduce inequalities in economic outcome e.g. Universities being forced to take disadvantaged pupils even if their grades are not up to scratch? It's a fact that an individual with a very low IQ is unlikely to be economically successful (the obvious exceptions being the cast of TOWIE) - sending them to University would not increase their IQ

[Old Greg]

Do you have a definition of 'human worth' which allows for absolute equality?

You're right I don't agree How does social engineering reduce inequalities in economic outcome e.g. Universities being forced to take disadvantaged pupils even if their grades are not up to scratch? It's a fact that an individual with a very low IQ is unlikely to be economically successful (the obvious exceptions being the cast of TOWIE) - sending them to University would not increase their IQ

1. A definition in which the very state of being human is what defines worth.

2. I said you wouldn't agree.

[Mich the Tester]

Do you have a definition of 'human worth' which allows for absolute equality?

You're right I don't agree How does social engineering reduce inequalities in economic outcome e.g. Universities being forced to take disadvantaged pupils even if their grades are not up to scratch? It's a fact that an individual with a very low IQ is unlikely to be economically successful (the obvious exceptions being the cast of TOWIE) - sending them to University would not increase their IQ

You´ve pointed to a policy there which was bad in practice. Of course it´s silly to expect people to become more intelligent by sending them to university even if their grades aren´t up to scratch. However, that doesn´t negate the idea of reducing inequality of opportunity or trying to ensure that even the least intelligent or capable people can have a quality of life that is generally accepted as decent and the opportunity to lead a fulfilling life. Of course dimwits can't be astronauts, but they don't have to be left to rot just because they're less intelligent than other people. This isn´t even an exclusively left wing theme anyway.

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

1. A definition in which the very state of being human is what defines worth.

2. I said you wouldn't agree.

1. Clever but meaningless

2. You were right

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

You´ve pointed to a policy there which was bad in practice. Of course it´s silly to expect people to become more intelligent by sending them to university even if their grades aren´t up to scratch. However, that doesn´t negate the idea of reducing inequality of opportunity or trying to ensure that even the least intelligent or capable people can have a quality of life that is generally accepted as decent and the opportunity to lead a fulfilling life. Of course dimwits can't be astronauts, but they don't have to be left to rot just because they're less intelligent than other people. This isn´t even an exclusively left wing theme anyway.

But that's the problem - lots of policies which purport to reduce inequality are bad in practice

[darmstadt]

You´ve pointed to a policy there which was bad in practice. Of course it´s silly to expect people to become more intelligent by sending them to university even if their grades aren´t up to scratch. However, that doesn´t negate the idea of reducing inequality of opportunity or trying to ensure that even the least intelligent or capable people can have a quality of life that is generally accepted as decent and the opportunity to lead a fulfilling life. Of course dimwits can't be astronauts, but they don't have to be left to rot just because they're less intelligent than other people. This isn´t even an exclusively left wing theme anyway.

I used to have an astronaut working in the office next to mine some years ago, he might have been good at astronauty stuff but he was crap at using office systems. This goes to show that a dimwit could in fact be very good at something if given the chance...

[Mich the Tester]

1. A definition in which the very state of being human is what defines worth.

1. Clever but meaningless

No it isn't meaningless. There are plenty of examples where simply being human confers ´worth´ and gives some set of ´rights´ to the human or obligations to others. Think of human rights declarations, constitutions that enshrine the rule of law and so on.

As well as that, there is human sympathy. When we see pictures of starving people in some turd world hellhole, most of us feel at least a little sympathy for them, and some will then give money or take part in aid operations to help them. When we see a person sleeping on the street, most of us feel at least some sympathy for his or her plight, even if we don´t always take action based on that sympathy. The same goes for a person who is seriously ill or suffering horrible injuries. That´s because what we see is a human being and not an IQ number, an exam grade or a story of the good and bad things that person has done; quite simply, when you see human suffering you're able to imagine to some extent what feelings that person has. Your emotions are then a weaker reflection of the emotions you believe you would feel in that state. At that moment when the sympathy instinct is triggered, we have an inate sense of equality because we don't generally believe that another human being should have to suffer like that. Adam Smith tried to explain this in the Theory of Moral Sentiments, and I rather wish that all those people who claim to have read the Wealth of Nations would sit down and read this too.

[original PM]

I think the premise that every one is born with equal worth is correct.

From there your actions define your worthiness - if for example you are a lazy scrotey toe rag who spends all their school years smoking pot, robbing cars and boning your cousin and therefore came out with no qualifications you will become less worthy a human being then someone who took a more virtous route as you will simply be of less value to the 'model' world.

Once we have agreed that then it does follow that actually you are of less value and it does not matter what social engineering or re-engineering is done if you have not used your formative years to obtain skills with value to other people you are worth less than other people.

[Mich the Tester]

But that's the problem - lots of policies which purport to reduce inequality are bad in practice

Indeed, but of course it's a problem that people have attempted to tackle for a long time with varying success. How bad are those policies? Are they really worse than no policy, or just not as effective as you think they should be? Some medicines fail to cure or relieve pain despite the best intentions of the doctor and many illnesses cannot be treated; that doesn't mean you don't try to treat illness or pain or that our system of medicine and research is bad. It just means that there has to be a constant effort to improve.