Cameron's vision for Britain ...

[DodgyAgent]

Cameron may appear vapid but he is an ideologue and it has been interesting for comparison to see Major, the pragmatist pop up recently.

I think Cameron looks over the Atlantic and sees a vision of a state where public services can be run into the ground and the poor left to subsist on food stamps and charity. We've already lost 1/3 of libraries in the county, which were replaced by a mobile library service. Cuts to the replacement mobile library service are now out for consultation as further cuts in spending are required.

That is utter nonsense. He wants public services to work. He does not want them to be a repository for "giving people something to do" and nor does he want them to be run into the ground. The reason we have such appalling public services is because the left see them as nothing more than a pool into which they can trap people into voting for them. There is a public sector office across the road from here. They all arrive at 10.00 am and leave at 4.30 (I walked in and asked them what the working times of the average worker were).

If libraries are being cut back it is probably because the local council wants to blackmail us into paying them more tax, or that money is being squandered elsewhere.

[Old Greg]

Hmmm. Let's put ideology aside for a while.
Judging by most European countries' debt-to-GDP ratios and low growth rates, combined with demographic problems, it seems that the post-war welfare state as we know it may not be affordable any more. Most rich countries seem to be postponing the problem by borrowing to sustain their lifestyles, but there's no guarantee that future economic growth will solve the problems of high debt now.
As an example it seems to me the NHS is not fit for purpose any more and can only get worse as demand increasingly continues to exceed supply.

And these are practical problems that need debate etc. etc.

But don't doubt that Cameron et al are ideologues who see this moment as a golden opportunity to close down large swathes of public services.

[doodab]

Hmmm. Let's put ideology aside for a while.
Judging by most European countries' debt-to-GDP ratios and low growth rates, combined with demographic problems, it seems that the post-war welfare state as we know it may not be affordable any more. Most rich countries seem to be postponing the problem by borrowing to sustain their lifestyles, but there's no guarantee that future economic growth will solve the problems of high debt now.
As an example it seems to me the NHS is not fit for purpose any more and can only get worse as demand increasingly continues to exceed supply.

I think you make a fair point. OTOH have a look at countries with low debt to GDP ratios and tell me they aren't ****ed as well. North Korea anyone?

Human society is ****ed because it's made out of people. That's my theory.

[DodgyAgent]

But don't doubt that Cameron et al are ideologues who see this moment as a golden opportunity to close down large swathes of public services.

What shred of evidence do you have to support such a left wing view?

[Mich the Tester]

And these are practical problems that need debate etc. etc.

But don't doubt that Cameron et al are ideologues who see this moment as a golden opportunity to close down large swathes of public services.

I don't think Cameron's such an idealogue; I think he's a bloke who's taken over the job just after someone else blew all the money, and unfortunately there are going to have to be serious spending cuts to get the budget under control. None of those cuts are going to be pleasant for the people concerned. The cuts will cause short term damage and might cause long term damage, but I'd still say that the root cause of that damage was actually unsustainable profligacy; decadence, even.

[Platypus]

If libraries are being cut back it is probably because the local council wants to blackmail us into paying them more tax, or that money is being squandered elsewhere.

Yes I agree with this. If councils have the choice between slashing "front line" services and then crying about austerity and the government, versus making savings and redundancies in the back office, they ALWAYS opt for the former.

They are worse custodians of taxpayers' money than central government

[Old Greg]

That is utter nonsense. He wants public services to work. He does not want them to be a repository for "giving people something to do" and nor does he want them to be run into the ground. The reason we have such appalling public services is because the left see them as nothing more than a pool into which they can trap people into voting for them. There is a public sector office across the road from here. They all arrive at 10.00 am and leave at 4.30 (I walked in and asked them what the working times of the average worker were).

If libraries are being cut back it is probably because the local council wants to blackmail us into paying them more tax, or that money is being squandered elsewhere.

That is utter nonsense.


See how that moves the debate along? Now let us look at some facts.

Have a look at BBC News - Councils facing 9.9% core funding cut from 2010.

The coalition said the "formula grant" from Whitehall would be reduced by 9.9% in 2011/2012 and by 7.3% in 2012/2013.

The cuts are part of a policy to cut central funding to local authorities by 28% over four years.

Now look at a random council I found via Google:

Overview of how local government finance works – East Sussex County Council

Paying for local government services
Local government spending amounts to about 27% of all public spending. Local authorities spend the majority of this on providing schools, social services and maintaining roads, but they also provide many other services. Local government spending pays for many different types of local authority. These include county councils, district councils, London and Metropolitan authorities, and police and fire services.

Overall, local government spending is paid for by three main sources:

Central Government − 61%
Business rates − 17%
Council tax − 22%
However, the local funding received by individual authorities varies significantly depending on the local tax base for council tax, the demography of local service need and the services provided by different types of local authority.

Funding from central government
The biggest single amount that local government receives is from central government. This is made up from ‘specific' grants (54%), and a general grant (7%) for local authorities and the police:

Specific grants are provided by central government to pay directly for individual services, such as running schools and helping vulnerable people with their housing and accommodation needs. Local authorities and schools would normally only spend this allocated grant money on the specified purposes.
A general grant is also paid by central government to local authorities. This is known as the Revenue Support Grant or Formula Grant. Formula Grant is largely funded by local business rates income (which is ultimately collected for central government). General grant and business rates are added together to make up the Formula Grant, which is then distributed to local authorities using a complex formula.

It has been a very clever move to cut the central government grant as it is much more significant than council tax, which is the big political football. Councils are forced to respond by cutting services. Why do you think:

If libraries are being cut back it is probably because the local council wants to blackmail us into paying them more tax, or that money is being squandered elsewhere.[

is true? A 5% increase in Council tax (which is politically impossible) could not possibly make up for the decrease in funding from central government.

[DodgyAgent]

That is utter nonsense.


See how that moves the debate along? Now let us look at some facts.

Have a look at BBC News - Councils facing 9.9% core funding cut from 2010.



Now look at a random council I found via Google:

Overview of how local government finance works – East Sussex County Council




It has been a very clever move to cut the central government grant as it is much more significant than council tax, which is the big political football. Councils are forced to respond by cutting services. Why do you think:



is true? A 5% increase in Council tax (which is politically impossible) could not possibly make up for the decrease in funding from central government.

You have just spent the last half hour looking all that up in order to support a sweeping generalisation that is simply not true. I would not have put you down as one of the "money grows on trees brigade" The reason there are cuts is because we as a society pay far to much for poorly delivered public services and there is no longer any money to pay for them. Of cours as a one of the highest paid people in society why don't you pay to keep the library opeN?

[Platypus]

<snip>

Yes, but, also
Investigation shows that more than 38,000 government workers earn over £100,000 | The Bureau of Investigative Journalism

Maybe I'm just la-la-la not listening but it seems to me that local government is still capable of paying huge salaries and wasting huge sums of money while all the time crying about how government has forced them to cut services.

[scooterscot]

He kind of looks like Al Capone..