Russell Brand

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

Yes, and he worked ******* hard, and he needed a whole lot of luck, because the number of people who became wealthy this way is tiny. The wealthy person in my example needed neither of those, simply because he was wealthy.


Yes, and he worked ******* hard, and he needed a whole lot of luck. You can also see how the "positive feedback" effect I'm talking about works, so that by the end of his journey, because he's wealthy, he can make 80 times the profit with the same amount of effort.


Not at all. The argument revolves around the fact that being wealthy gives one access to much better opportunities.

You keep on about better opportunities but don't cite examples - the person in my example could just have easily bought the £4 million house just before the property crash and sold it 2 years later at a whacking great loss but rather, he studied the property markets, locations, amenities, infrastructure etc and made a sensible purchase which resulted in a profit.

I don't really understand who your beef is with - it seems to be anyone with money regardless of how much hard work and effort they had to put in to get it

[DodgyAgent]

Not entirely, but let me ask you a question. If becoming a successful businessmen person making millions just took hard work and some risk why wouldn't every person who did that be successful?

People make millions because they want to make millions. You make hundreds of thousands because that is your choice. Making millions has little to do with talent, it is the drive to get there. To even suggest these people do it by luck is ridiculous.

Most of us have the privilege of being able to choose what sort of life we lead. Those who do not are the ones who should be given the same choices we have.

The problem is that when many of us see other people doing better (financially) than us we take it personally as illustrated here on this very thread. This is why society is entrenched in a bitter row about the poorer less privileged sections of society. The argument should be moved away from this level.

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

Survivorship bias, you may as well list people who won the lottery, they took the risk with their £1. For every Branson there are millions of dreamers with their head in the clouds and an empty bank account and string of failed businesses. You need huge amounts of luck (right place at right time), and then be sharp enough to take that opportunity and work hard to keep being successful.

Exactly

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

People make millions because they want to make millions. You make hundreds of thousands because that is your choice. Making millions has little to do with talent, it is the drive to get there. To even suggest these people do it by luck is ridiculous.

Most of us have the privilege of being able to choose what sort of life we lead. Those who do not are the ones who should be given the same choices we have.

The problem is that when many of us see other people doing better (financially) than us we take it personally as illustrated here on this very thread. This is why society is entrenched in a bitter row about the poorer less privileged sections of society. The argument should be moved away from this level.

Interesting point - in my experience some people would like to have money but, for whatever reason, don't genuinely believe that they deserve it or have been prejudiced against wealth e.g. by a parent who believes that money is the root of all evil.

[russell]

People make millions because they want to make millions. You make hundreds of thousands because that is your choice. Making millions has little to do with talent, it is the drive to get there. To even suggest these people do it by luck is ridiculous.

Most of us have the privilege of being able to choose what sort of life we lead. Those who do not are the ones who should be given the same choices we have.

The problem is that when many of us see other people doing better (financially) than us we take it personally as illustrated here on this very thread. This is why society is entrenched in a bitter row about the poorer less privileged sections of society. The argument should be moved away from this level.

So if a person born in an African village in a famine wants to become a millionaire they can just choose to?

There are many people with unlimited drive who want to become millionaires but never do it. Drive is one component needed I agree, but there are many others including luck.

[doodab]

You keep on about better opportunities but don't cite examples - the person in my example could just have easily bought the £4 million house just before the property crash and sold it 2 years later at a whacking great loss but rather, he studied the property markets, locations, amenities, infrastructure etc and made a sensible purchase which resulted in a profit.

Yes he could. But the poor person never had the opportunity to do that either.

I don't really understand who your beef is with - it seems to be anyone with money regardless of how much hard work and effort they had to put in to get it

Perhaps because you don't understand that I don't have a "beef" with anyone. I don't mind that people have money, however they came by it. I mind that we have a social order that seems to value money disproportionately highly relatively to people.

In an earlier post I asked why someone with $1 million is entitled to 3x-5x the global average wage. Lets rephrase that to make it less personal, and correct it because interest rates are currently very low, and ask why is a disembodied $1 million entitled to roughly the global average wage?

Once you have a million you can effectively obtain the same rewards as an average person can, without doing anything. Furthermore, wealth effectively multiplies the reward for a given effort in a non linear way, so that while someone with a million will still require hard work, good judgement and an element of luck to make their second, they need a lot less of those things than someone with nothing needs to make their first.

I would also say that I think that the historically low interest rates we see now are an inevitable consequence of this imbalance working itself out. Capital is simply overvalued, because it is ultimately worthless without human endeavour.

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

So if a person born in an African village in a famine wants to become a millionaire they can just choose to?

There are many people with unlimited drive who want to become millionaires but never do it. Drive is one component needed I agree, but there are many others including luck.

Black Businessman in Remote South African Village Becomes Millionaire

[doodab]

Black Businessman in Remote South African Village Becomes Millionaire

An outcome less likely than winning the lottery. But definitely nothing to do with luck. Anyone could do it, if only they could be bothered.

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

Yes he could. But the poor person never had the opportunity to do that either.



Perhaps because you don't understand that I don't have a "beef" with anyone. I don't mind that people have money, however they came by it. I mind that we have a social order that seems to value money disproportionately highly relatively to people.

In an earlier post I asked why someone with $1 million is entitled to 3x-5x the global average wage. Lets rephrase that to make it less personal, and correct it because interest rates are currently very low, and ask why is a disembodied $1 million entitled to roughly the global average wage?

Once you have a million you can effectively obtain the same rewards as an average person can, without doing anything. Furthermore, wealth effectively multiplies the reward for a given effort in a non linear way, so that while someone with a million will still require hard work, good judgement and an element of luck to make their second, they need a lot less of those things than someone with nothing needs to make their first.

I would also say that I think that the historically low interest rates we see now are an inevitable consequence of this imbalance working itself out. Capital is simply overvalued, because it is ultimately worthless without human endeavour.

Ok, so what changes would you propose to ensure that people valued the efforts of their fellow man?

[DodgyAgent]

So if a person born in an African village in a famine wants to become a millionaire they can just choose to?

There are many people with unlimited drive who want to become millionaires but never do it. Drive is one component needed I agree, but there are many others including luck.

I covered your point in what I said, if you bothered to read it properly.

Rather than me try to explain it may I suggest you read a few books by and about people who have "made it" and then maybe you would understand what is meant by "unlimited drive". I am afraid those that do not make it fail because they do not have the drive. Some have talent, some have charm, some have attention to detail and some are utterly ruthless. Some have strong strategic minds and some are good with figures, but without that basic desire they won't do it.

In the western world, in this country in particular where we end up is in direct proportion to what we put in.