The Pope and Dawkins: two sides of the same coin.

[Wanderer]

Reading the times today:

Dawkins says morality has nothing to do with religion.

The Pope says it's not a sin to not believe in God as long as you follow your conscience.

I'll probably be ok which ever then

People keep trying to say that hell isn't the "bad place" it's made out to be or that "good people" won't be sent there but the teachings of Christianity and the Holy Bible are absolutely unequivocal: people who do not believe in Jesus Christ and beg forgiveness for their sins while they are still alive will burn in hell and be tortured for all eternity. Now we have the Pope saying "God's mercy has no limits, if He is approached with a sincere and repentant heart". Well that would be great, but the Bible doesn't say anything like that. If it said you could wait till you were dead and then repent then it sort of defeats the purpose of religion, doesn't it. Sounds a bit like Homer Simpson who asked "why can't I pray like hell on my deathbed?"

The church is looking more and more archaic in our enlightened and religiously tolerant society. Just a generation ago the church would preach hell-fire and damnation to any one who was not a Christian (or indeed, who followed the wrong corporate brand of Christianity). People are now waking up and realising how nonsensical it all sounds.

More and more people are leaving the religious superstition and fear behind and embracing atheism. There is no god, stop worrying and just get on with living a decent life.

[Jog On]

There is no god, stop worrying and just get on with living a decent life.

People always sound so sure when they say that - like they know for sure. Very similar to the religious dogmatists they're arguing against.

[MyUserName]

The existence of God (or a god) does not need to be proved since it is a belief and by definition, belief does not require proof.

In that case we can safely put God (or a god) in the same box as the tooth fairy. The proof of God is in the bible etc and it has been shown to be contradictory, wrong, inconsistent and deeply flawed on basic levels. I woul guess that other holy books are the same. Hence I have not been convinced as through no fault of my own do not believe.

Although I would not want to go to heaven either way. I could not stand living forever knowing that people were being tortured for eternity, some of my friends and family would probably be there.

[Jog On]

You guys need to stop thinking in terms of the white bearded person in the sky who judges you and good people going to heaven and bad people going to hell. You're completely missing the point.

Just be happy.

I pretty much agree with this statement:

The word God has become empty of meaning through thousands of years of misuse... By misuse, I mean that people who have never even glimpsed the realm of the sacred, the infinite vastness behind that word, use it with great conviction, as if they knew what they are talking about. Or they argue against it, as if they knew what it is that they are denying. This misuse gives rise to absurd beliefs, assertions, and egoic delusions, such as “My or our God is the only true God, and your God is false,” or Nietzsche’s famous statement “God is dead.”

The word God has become a closed concept. The moment the word is uttered, a mental image is created, no longer, perhaps, of an old man with a white beard, but still a mental representation of someone or something outside you, and, yes, almost inevitably a male someone or something.

Neither God nor Being nor any other word can define or explain the ineffable reality behind the word, so the only important question is whether the word is a help or a hindrance in enabling you to experience That toward which it points. Does it point beyond itself to the transcendental reality, or does it lend itself too easily to becoming no more than an idea in your head that you believe in, a mental idol?

The word Being explains nothing, but nor does God. Being, however, has the advantage that it is an open concept. It does not reduce the infinite invisible to a finite entity. It is impossible to form a mental image of it. Nobody can claim exclusive possession of Being. It is your very essence, and it is immediately accessible to you as the feeling of your own presence, the realization I am that is prior to I am this or I am that. So it is only a small step from the word Being to the experience of Being.

— Eckhart Tolle – The Power of Now (p. 13-14)

[Wanderer]

There is no god, stop worrying and just get on with living a decent life.

People always sound so sure when they say that - like they know for sure. Very similar to the religious dogmatists they're arguing against.

May I present to you Russell's teapot.

[Jog On]

Bit too mind/intellect/ego/argument based for me.

I'd rather meditate and appreciate the natural beauty of something from nature.

Here's a question for all the science vs religion arguement/ego people:

What exactly is nature? Not a dictionary definition or scientific analysis. But that feeling you get when you see outstanding natural beauty? What would you say that is to you and does is 'exist' or not?

No mental labels or mind/ego based beliefs just the feeling - what does it mean to you?

[vetran]

Bit too mind/intellect/ego/argument based for me.

I'd rather meditate and appreciate the natural beauty of something from nature.

Here's a question for all the science vs religion arguement/ego people:

What exactly is nature? Not a dictionary definition or scientific analysis. But that feeling you get when you see outstanding natural beauty? What would you say that is to you and does is 'exist' or not?

No mental labels or mind/ego based beliefs just the feeling - what does it mean to you?

Nothing wrong with being astounded with our luck for being lucky enough to be born in this 'the best of all possible worlds'.

its a similar feeling to the one I get seeing my children. If you are religious then its the hand of God on your shoulder if you aren't its the natural reaction the human body has to beauty.

[Jog On]

its a similar feeling to the one I get seeing my children. If you are religious then its the hand of God on your shoulder if you aren't its the natural reaction the human body has to beauty.

I think this goes for religious and non religious be they Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus or living in a rainforest.

I personally like Einstein's take on the whole subject:

My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind

Albert Einstein Quotes on Spirituality

[Ticktock]

May I present to you Russell's teapot.

So just reading the intro paragraph there, "it is nonsensical for him to expect others to believe him on the grounds that they cannot prove him wrong."

In the vast majority of cases those believing in God are not expecting others to believe them. They are asking to be left alone to follow their own beliefs, and it's generally only when someone starts banging the anti-religious drum that they start to feel defensive and speak up. Sure, you get evangelists (small "e"), but these tend to be picked up on and used as whipping boys as if they represent their faith as a whole, rather than being a fairly loud minority.

[doodab]

I find Mr Dawkins and his anti-religious rantings exceedingly ******* annoying. His belief system seems to be unconcerned with providing answers to metaphysical questions and focussed purely on attacking preexisting theistic beliefs. A belief system that requires constant reference to some other belief system in order to define itself seems rather pointless to me.

He'd be far more interesting if he used his supposedly massive intellect and enormous gob to elucidate what he does believe and provide rational foundations for it.

I say this as a lifelong atheist, give or take.