The future of Britain outside the EU ....

[sasguru]

The trick is to hide that.

You can't hide it when you're bust.
It's like a broke man going a luxury holiday to keep up appearances.
He makes his financial situation even worse.

[Mich the Tester]

You can't hide it when you're bust.
It's like a broke man going a luxury holiday to keep up appearances.
He makes his financial situation even worse.

It will be quite embarrassing when his credit card's refused at the hotel lobby or cut to pieces by the waiter after an expensive meal.

[Mich the Tester]

But I am not convinced though that a German/Franco relationship would last.

A closer Anglo-Germananic cooperation would seem more logical to me. That way you would combine the best manufacturing based economy with the best service based economy with around 150M population ( including Austria, Holland ). World-class Universities, World-class research. It would have a lot going for it.

Why would the Germans want to be tied closer to the French with their inefficient farming, bloated state and state supported industries?

Prior to World War 1 the Germans & Anglo-Saxons generally considered themselves "Cousins". It was the carnage of the trenches that destroyed that.

Do you want to know what the top German politicians really think of the French? They think they're lazy, workshy, feckless, indisciplined, backstabbing dishonest jerks who'll scheme and plot against anybody just to get their way and carry on their life of leisure at everyone else's expense while Germans work damn hard to keep their house in order. That's why the Germans want big deals with them within the EU and Franco-German friendship agreements; they trust them even less than the British trust them and they want to keep them on a short leash. Rightly so, IMO, and it's why a Franco-German relationship will last just as long as the Germans want it to. And that's another good reason why Britain should be in. All those cuddly moments between Merkel and Sarkozy were a show; she hated him, because he represents everything that Germans despise. The Germans can't say it publicly, but they like and admire the British, if nothing else because the British can see straight through the French as well, and at least most British people actually get up in the morning and go and do some work instead of turning up half pissed demanding a statutory siesta straight after their 2 hour lunch break.

[Old Greg]

The American's may wish the UK to remain in the EU but there is no way they'd accept the regulations from the EU in their own country.

Employment rights? Working Time directive?

And yes I do think it's time we stopped fighting other peoples wars.

Here's an interesting stat.

The UK Defence budget is approx £60B per year. The German defence budget is £40B ( for "historic reasons" )

However there are more Germans than UK tax payers and the tax rate is about the same so all in all the UK taxpayer must be paying at least 60 - 70% more for defence than the average German.

What do the Germans spend the extra tax on? World class infrastructure. We spend ours on bombs. The German taxpayer can ride around in his nice train for 20 years. We can only bomb someone once.

If the UK cut the Defence budget to £40B and stepped out of the EU we'd be able to afford a HS2 AND Channel tunnel every year AND direct the spending to UK based companies to rebuild our manufacturing capability.

It would also have the up-side of making the Germans divert more of their cash into their own defence which would make them less competitive. Although I do admit this could have some unforeseen circumstances.

Can any of you UKIP supporters remember what UKIP's policy is on defence expenditure?

[sasguru]

Can any of you UKIP supporters remember what UKIP's policy is on defence expenditure?

Apparently it is to ramp it up while cutting taxes.
I think the UKIP shadow chancellor is worse at maths than Gordon 'I'm bad at maths' Brown.

[doodab]

Can any of you UKIP supporters remember what UKIP's policy is on defence expenditure?

Ignore it and it will go away

[OwlHoot]

The UK Defence budget is approx £60B per year. The German defence budget is £40B ( for "historic reasons" )

However there are more Germans than UK tax payers and the tax rate is about the same so all in all the UK taxpayer must be paying at least 60 - 70% more for defence than the average German. ..

Are you suggesting the Germans should increase their, um, defence budget?

Next you'll be saying they should have nice shiny new uniforms

[Old Greg]

Apparently it is to ramp it up while cutting taxes.
I think the UKIP shadow chancellor is worse at maths than Gordon 'I'm bad at maths' Brown.

Don't forget the additional cost of school education vouchers.

[sasguru]

Don't forget the additional cost of school education vouchers.

UKIP policy:
We'll spend on nice, shiny new things like schools, hospitals, tanks, guns, planes and ships for our troops.
Oh and roads, bridges and housing. But not the HS train link, oh no, don't need that.
Oh and we'll reduces taxes.

[darmstadt]

I've read somewhere that the Germans are 'very keen' for the UK to stay in the EU to lead the reformation of the system.

The Germans seem to think that we are the only ones not hide-bound to the institutions and can see the wood for the trees.

We've also turned around massive systems in a way that other Governments have not managed.

A couple of reasonably good articles about this:

Germany backs campaign to keep UK in EU | World news | The Guardian

Britons obsess about immigration, Germans focus on education | Martin Kettle | Comment is free | The Guardian