Left vs right - the unfillable gulf

[sasguru]

Until I hear a coherent explanation for this that doesn't negate the right's ideas about market economics or free competition I can only conclude that many on the right are either suffering from cognitive dissonance or are very selfish hypocrites. By the way, I'm, saying that even though I consider myself a tory and am in fact a member of the Conservatives Abroad.

Are you saying Xog is a stinking lefty since he supports controls on movement of people?
I thought as much.

[vetran]

why do you need a free market for immigration if you have an effective free market at the individual level?

Whilst repatriating wages may help in country development the new host country sees hardship and long term the original country loses the genes that make people develop themselves. That is the dragging down the left like.

I prefer the idea that was effective in Brunei, Dubai, China. Commerce supported by foreign governments and foreign experts.

[Mich the Tester]

Are you saying Xog is a stinking lefty since he supports controls on movement of people?
I thought as much.

I wouldn't want to lower myself to insulting him simply because he doesn't agree with me; he seems a pretty intelligent person, but I have never heard a coherent argument from anyone that supports free markets for goods and services but doesn't support free markets for labour; maybe he can provide that. OK, so I'll make an exception for keeping proven criminals (for offenses that are crimes under British law, not people who shagged their girlfriend withoput being married, as is a crime in some places) and terrorists out.

A lot of people in the conservatives seem to struggle with this, especially those on the right; I've always suggested to them that what migrants are doing is following the example of Lord Tebbit's dad, who ' got on his bike and looked for work' and didn't stop until he'd found it. Logically, conservatives should be supportive of people who'll trek across entire continents to better themselves while others sit at home whining and blaming their troubles on somebody else, but the only answers I get are variations on a theme of ' yes, but erm, umm, well umm...'. Perhaps xog can do better.

[Mich the Tester]

why do you need a free market for immigration if you have an effective free market at the individual level?

Firstly, Im not sure what you mean by that, (a free market is not 'at the individual level', it's at all sorts of levels), and secondly I'd question whether there is a free market ' at the individual level'.

[Troll]

Says it all really...

Lefties are limp wristed shandy drinkers...& yes it's in the DM

Men who are physically strong are more likely to have right wing political views

[vetran]

Firstly, Im not sure what you mean by that, (a free market is not 'at the individual level', it's at all sorts of levels), and secondly I'd question whether there is a free market ' at the individual level'.

on eBay I can buy goods direct from a chinese supplier, I suspect many are individuals.
Rentacoder
Both I would consider at an individual level.

Theo from the Dragon's den is directly supporting schools in his home country. But many UK

I'm all for controlled immigration and some repatriation of cash. But ILR granted because it takes years to deport asylum seekers is obviously wrong.

[Mich the Tester]

on eBay I can buy goods direct from a chinese supplier, I suspect many are individuals.
Rentacoder
Both I would consider at an individual level.

Theo from the Dragon's den is directly supporting schools in his home country. But many UK

I'm all for controlled immigration and some repatriation of cash. But ILR granted because it takes years to deport asylum seekers is obviously wrong.

Right, so someone who has goods to sell on e-bay and access to the internet gets to be part of the free market, as does someone who can write code. What about everyone else? People's talents are different; building things, yomping around with heavy objects, repairing stuff, cooking, providing healthcare, providing live entertainment, researching and so on and so forth. Should all those people be shut out of the free market and thereby unable to seek the best deal in return for their skills?

[vetran]

Right, so someone who has goods to sell on e-bay and access to the internet gets to be part of the free market, as does someone who can write code. What about everyone else? People's talents are different; building things, yomping around with heavy objects, repairing stuff, cooking, providing healthcare, providing live entertainment, researching and so on and so forth. Should all those people be shut out of the free market and thereby unable to seek the best deal in return for their skills?

so only people who have a cousin in the UK can take part in your situation?


The list wasn't exhaustive.

Solar Cookers International | Aid for Africa

is probably a good example to answer your question

or

Aquaponics in Rural Kenya


these are being championed by western charities but making real differences in LEDCs. Some are even taking the technology and pushing development beyond western levels then selling it back.

Anyone can do this.

OPPC is also a good example that gets over the programming hurdle.

You only need a few wealthy people in the village and you can pull it out of poverty.

[Mich the Tester]

so only people who have a cousin in the UK can take part in your situation?

No, anybody, that's my point. I support the principle of free migration except when it's absolutely necessary to stop someone migrating, just as I support the principle of free markets and competition for the sale of goods, services and labour, except when it's absolutely necessary for governments to get involved. Now OK, there are and have been plenty of examples of when it was absolutely necessary for governments to interfere (e.g. the recent banking bugger-up) and I think some services are better provided by government than the free market, but still I think markets and competition generally do a reasonably good job and are a deent default position, so why shouldn't individuals have the same free access to global markets as businesses increasingly have?

[vetran]

No, anybody, that's my point. I support the principle of free migration except when it's absolutely necessary to stop someone migrating, just as I support the principle of free markets and competition for the sale of goods, services and labour, except when it's absolutely necessary for governments to get involved. Now OK, there are and have been plenty of examples of when it was absolutely necessary for governments to interfere (e.g. the recent banking bugger-up) and I think some services are better provided by government than the free market, but still I think markets and competition generally do a reasonably good job and are a deent default position, so why shouldn't individuals have the same free access to global markets as businesses increasingly have?

Oh - I think you might want to consider the effects of Globalisation on the bottom 90% of the population.