Healthcare - NHS/Private

[psychocandy]

My missus used to be a Staff nurse in the NHS and the number of horror stories she used to tell me (usually when I was eating for some reason) beggars belief.

There's been a few changes in the way Nurses are educated, the main one being that a University degree is now necessary to be a State Registered Nurse. The post of Enrolled Nurse was also abolished. Who decided you need a degree to become a Nurse? IMHO we're getting people coming into Nursing now who can do the theory and pass exams but have no empathy with patients and very little hands-on experience of day-to-day Nursing that they used to gain under the old system where they would work in wards for 3 months at a time (or longer).

Don't agree. The trend towards making nursing a 'profession' can only help IMHO. Needing a degree makes nursing a proper profession and not a glorified arse wiper like they were before.

A well-educated nurse has their place in the medical profession where they can be the experts in their field and not have to rely totally on doctors and be, like I said, arse wipers.... In the old days, it was a case whatever the doctor said goes so its good to have other experts.

[psychocandy]

No point.

Unless you are staff at that particular hospital you don't get an apology.

All they do after lots of wrangling is pay you off when you feel particularly bitter and tired. You get no apology and no-one admitting liability.

You are better of going public with your ordeal.

On the other hand knowing doctors and nurses who have worked in both wealthier and poor areas, those patients in the wealthy areas try and sue all the time, when it's actually patients who live in poorer areas who are actually mistreated the most. One of my mates explained in leafy Surrey they don't discharge patients who in Croydon (which is actually in Greater London) wouldn't even have been in-patients.

But surely thats the point. No-one complains because they think they won't be listened to. The more who do bother the better.

[psychocandy]

Various tulipe experiences with the NHS over the past few weeks (8 hours in hospital with mrs on friday) have convinced me that I'd be off my head to rely on the NHS.

Any recommendations for private health care?

[SueEllen]

But surely thats the point. No-one complains because they think they won't be listened to. The more who do bother the better.

People complain all the time but you haven't worked out that some people in the NHS think it's their duty to ignore your complaint or bully other people into lying to cover up wrong doing.

If you read the stories coming out about Stafford one of the consultants was told by a lawyer to change his statement about the misconduct about of a more junior doctor. She wanted the statement to be changed so the parents of the patient couldn't get any compensation from the junior doctor's misconduct causing the young man's death.

The lawyer was sacked for putting this pressure on the consultant but won her employment tribunal for unfair dismissal and got £125, 000 in compensation. (The fact the management couldn't sack a lawyer correctly says a lot.)

Talking to my neighbours, family and friends who have work in the NHS things go wrong and are covered up frequently.

Most of them are minor and even if relations complain there is no publicity. If the staff member mentions a possible issue the management style determines whether they are forced out of that place or not. (Two people I know don't take tulip any more from any manager, while the rest are scared.)

However in the few cases that come into the local media are brought to our attention is due to the relations and their solicitor contacting the media. It doesn't matter what the result is but once a hospital, GP surgery or clinic has media attention the place is presumed to be bad.

The reason people go to the media is that the hospital lawyers know every trick to frustrate people and wear them down particularly by ensuring the complaint takes years to deal with.

A doctor I know wrote 3 statements about one complaint over a 2.5 year period. The hospital knew that someone senior was negligent and spent that time trying to pin it on someone more junior. Unfortunately for them their records were crap enough not to realise this doctor wasn't actually junior so knew enough to cover their back and implicate a more experienced senior doctor who couldn't be bothered to come in from home.

[mudskipper]

Don't agree. The trend towards making nursing a 'profession' can only help IMHO. Needing a degree makes nursing a proper profession and not a glorified arse wiper like they were before.

I think this is the problem, especially with elderly patients. You need someone to wipe the arses. Fair enough have a tier of nurses with degrees, but you need the people to do the actual care stuff - spoon feeding elderly patients, washing and cleaning them, unskilled but essential work. SENs, care assistants, whatever.

[socialworker]

I think this is the problem, especially with elderly patients. You need someone to wipe the arses. Fair enough have a tier of nurses with degrees, but you need the people to do the actual care stuff - spoon feeding elderly patients, washing and cleaning them, unskilled but essential work. SENs, care assistants, whatever.

The problem, or one of them, is the attitude that you constantly split jobs up into little bits and give the 'easier' bits to less qualified people in the name of efficiency. Thus wiping bottoms becomes hived off to unqualified people, and is regarded as a waste of time for a qualified person. Some poor sod has the job of all the bottom wiping and naturally gets pretty blase about it.

I heard one nurse say that in a previous training regime, student nurses were put on the wards at an early stage and those who didnt like the mundane stuff and dealing with bodily fluids etc were weeded out early. Now they dont get on the ward until much later on. Seems to me this could well be part of the problem.

[DodgyAgent]

People complain all the time but you haven't worked out that some people in the NHS think it's their duty to ignore your complaint or bully other people into lying to cover up wrong doing.

If you read the stories coming out about Stafford one of the consultants was told by a lawyer to change his statement about the misconduct about of a more junior doctor. She wanted the statement to be changed so the parents of the patient couldn't get any compensation from the junior doctor's misconduct causing the young man's death.

The lawyer was sacked for putting this pressure on the consultant but won her employment tribunal for unfair dismissal and got £125, 000 in compensation. (The fact the management couldn't sack a lawyer correctly says a lot.)

Talking to my neighbours, family and friends who have work in the NHS things go wrong and are covered up frequently.

Most of them are minor and even if relations complain there is no publicity. If the staff member mentions a possible issue the management style determines whether they are forced out of that place or not. (Two people I know don't take tulip any more from any manager, while the rest are scared.)

However in the few cases that come into the local media are brought to our attention is due to the relations and their solicitor contacting the media. It doesn't matter what the result is but once a hospital, GP surgery or clinic has media attention the place is presumed to be bad.

The reason people go to the media is that the hospital lawyers know every trick to frustrate people and wear them down particularly by ensuring the complaint takes years to deal with.

A doctor I know wrote 3 statements about one complaint over a 2.5 year period. The hospital knew that someone senior was negligent and spent that time trying to pin it on someone more junior. Unfortunately for them their records were crap enough not to realise this doctor wasn't actually junior so knew enough to cover their back and implicate a more experienced senior doctor who couldn't be bothered to come in from home.

While all this may on some level be true it is really a sidetrack to put anyone off trying to reform the system. This message basically tells us two things. Give us more money or stop complaining (how much is enough? and secondly that the entire service is run for the benefit for those who run it and work in it ("choice is not the answer").

The clear to see factor is that there is obviously a "system" that is unimpeachable and if anyone within the NHS dares to criticise it they will never work in the UK again.

Frightening.

[psychocandy]

People complain all the time but you haven't worked out that some people in the NHS think it's their duty to ignore your complaint or bully other people into lying to cover up wrong doing.

If you read the stories coming out about Stafford one of the consultants was told by a lawyer to change his statement about the misconduct about of a more junior doctor. She wanted the statement to be changed so the parents of the patient couldn't get any compensation from the junior doctor's misconduct causing the young man's death.

The lawyer was sacked for putting this pressure on the consultant but won her employment tribunal for unfair dismissal and got £125, 000 in compensation. (The fact the management couldn't sack a lawyer correctly says a lot.)

Talking to my neighbours, family and friends who have work in the NHS things go wrong and are covered up frequently.

Most of them are minor and even if relations complain there is no publicity. If the staff member mentions a possible issue the management style determines whether they are forced out of that place or not. (Two people I know don't take tulip any more from any manager, while the rest are scared.)

However in the few cases that come into the local media are brought to our attention is due to the relations and their solicitor contacting the media. It doesn't matter what the result is but once a hospital, GP surgery or clinic has media attention the place is presumed to be bad.

The reason people go to the media is that the hospital lawyers know every trick to frustrate people and wear them down particularly by ensuring the complaint takes years to deal with.

A doctor I know wrote 3 statements about one complaint over a 2.5 year period. The hospital knew that someone senior was negligent and spent that time trying to pin it on someone more junior. Unfortunately for them their records were crap enough not to realise this doctor wasn't actually junior so knew enough to cover their back and implicate a more experienced senior doctor who couldn't be bothered to come in from home.

Yep. Agreed. Like I said, my wife is a nurse and they all know that if someone complains it get covered up if they can. If they still can't get away with it they'll blame the nurse. Easier to get a new nurse than a new consultant.

[psychocandy]

I think this is the problem, especially with elderly patients. You need someone to wipe the arses. Fair enough have a tier of nurses with degrees, but you need the people to do the actual care stuff - spoon feeding elderly patients, washing and cleaning them, unskilled but essential work. SENs, care assistants, whatever.

Yes, agreed, you do. But there are jobs for this - care assistants. No need to dumb down the role of the nurse like the old days just because someone needs to do this.

Much better to have PROFESSIONAL nurses who are experts at patient care and can look after the patient properly rather than just being the doctors lackys like in the old days.

[psychocandy]

While all this may on some level be true it is really a sidetrack to put anyone off trying to reform the system. This message basically tells us two things. Give us more money or stop complaining (how much is enough? and secondly that the entire service is run for the benefit for those who run it and work in it ("choice is not the answer").

The clear to see factor is that there is obviously a "system" that is unimpeachable and if anyone within the NHS dares to criticise it they will never work in the UK again.

Frightening.

Dodgy,

Dont like agreeing with agents normally ;-)

But you are spot on here. No-one is 'allowed' to complain about the good old' NHS because its the wonderful NHS.

As others have pointed out, they just don't deal with complaints if they can help it.